Mario- How about this verse in 1 thes in which paul says we
christians will remain until the coming of Jesus in the clouds.
I Thessalonians 4:15 NKJV
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
He goes on to describe His coming as being in the clouds with the sound of the trumpet.
I Thessalonians 4:15 NKJV
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
He goes on to describe His coming as being in the clouds with the sound of the trumpet.
Don- "In the clouds" is a Hebraism which means a large
group. In this case the large group are the angels which return with Christ.
Matt 16:27
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels ; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
KJV
We see the same Hebraism in Heb 12:1 "cloud of witnesses".
12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses,
KJV
Matt 16:27
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels ; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
KJV
We see the same Hebraism in Heb 12:1 "cloud of witnesses".
12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses,
KJV
Mario- Is the hebraism used in 1 thesalonians 4:17 which is
written in greek
Don- Yeah, you have to remember that Paul's 1st language was
Hebrew. Greek was widely used because of the Greek dominion of the land for a
few hundred years prior to the Roman occupation.
Mario-Yes but we need to go according to the language he used
in the book of 1 thes. If the meaning of clouds isn't the same as the hebraism
you used, then we have to abide by the other meaning
Mario- So it would be wise to look up the greek word for clouds.
Not that I'm doubting your interpretation.
John- It doesn't say that He's coming
back on a cloud of witnesses. It says on the clouds. Sometimes,
"clouds" just means "clouds":
Luke 12:54- "And he said also to the people, When ye see a cloud rise out of the west, straightway ye say, There cometh a shower; and so it is."
Acts 1:9- "And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight."
Revelation 14:14-15: "And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe."
I agree that He returns from Heaven with the angels, however.
Luke 12:54- "And he said also to the people, When ye see a cloud rise out of the west, straightway ye say, There cometh a shower; and so it is."
Acts 1:9- "And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight."
Revelation 14:14-15: "And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe."
I agree that He returns from Heaven with the angels, however.
Don- It's a Hebraism, John. It's an idiom which is even used in our
language and culture. Example: A cloud of locusts. I think we all know that
means a large group of locusts.
John, it doesn't say, "He's coming on the clouds". It says, "He's coming in the clouds". By the context you can tell that this is figurative and thus the idiom.
When Christ returns he's not going to be flying around in the clouds in the sky. He'll be on the ground and his angels will be with him.
Mario-, Paul was Hebrew and even though the scriptures by Paul were written in Greek, Paul still used Hebrew figures of speech. Any good Bible scholar can tell you that.
Btw it is not an idiom every time the word cloud is used. Rev 14:14 as you quoted above, cloud in that verse just means a cloud.
John, it doesn't say, "He's coming on the clouds". It says, "He's coming in the clouds". By the context you can tell that this is figurative and thus the idiom.
When Christ returns he's not going to be flying around in the clouds in the sky. He'll be on the ground and his angels will be with him.
Mario-, Paul was Hebrew and even though the scriptures by Paul were written in Greek, Paul still used Hebrew figures of speech. Any good Bible scholar can tell you that.
Btw it is not an idiom every time the word cloud is used. Rev 14:14 as you quoted above, cloud in that verse just means a cloud.
Mario- Rev 14 is understood by me as the rapture
Mario- Anyway, if you need to believe its a cloud of angels then
ok. Its a matter of opinion though.
Mario-You're on the mark as far as debunking pretrib
Don- In 1 Thess 4:17 there are a couple of Hebraisms used here.
1 Thess 4:17
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds , to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV
We are not meeting the Lord up in the sky inside of clouds. Come on you guys, sharpen up.
Again,"in the clouds" implies a cloud of angels.
"In the air" is a Hebraism for the breath of life or spiritual body. When Christ returns what happens to our bodies?
1 Cor 15:52-53
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
KJV
At the moment that Christ returns with his angels we are all changed into our incorruptible bodies which are our spiritual bodies.
1 Thess 4:17
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds , to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV
We are not meeting the Lord up in the sky inside of clouds. Come on you guys, sharpen up.
Again,"in the clouds" implies a cloud of angels.
"In the air" is a Hebraism for the breath of life or spiritual body. When Christ returns what happens to our bodies?
1 Cor 15:52-53
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
KJV
At the moment that Christ returns with his angels we are all changed into our incorruptible bodies which are our spiritual bodies.
Mario- So they can't be high up in the clouds like a plane in
the sky? How about when Jesus was received into a cloud in acts 1:9?
It makes perfect sense that they were in the clouds with a bunch of angels.
It makes perfect sense that they were in the clouds with a bunch of angels.
Mario- Can you provide the greek and hebrew word for cloud used
in the passages so i can investigate?
Don- Mario-, the word
"cloud" still means cloud in Greek. But when it is used as an idiom
that changes the meaning.
John-That's a classic Arnold Murray
(Shepherd's Chapel) teaching.
"in the air" is not an idiom for "breath of life". The Greek "pneuma" is breath. Paul used the Greek "aēr", which is the air/atmosphere:
"Aēr" clearly refers to literal air, and it's what's used on 1 Thess 4:17:
First in English:
1 Thessalonians 4:17- "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
Now in Greek:
4:17 ἔπειτα ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι ἅμα σὺν αὐτοῖς ἁρπαγησόμεθα ἐν νεφέλαις εἰς ἀπάντησιν τοῦ κυρίου εἰς ἀέρα καὶ οὕτως πάντοτε σὺν κυρίῳ ἐσόμεθα
The word "άέρα" is "aēr" ("air"). Here are examples of it's usage elsewhere in Scripture:
Acts 22:23- "And as they cried out, and cast off their clothes, and threw dust into the air,"
1 Corinthians 9:26- "I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:"
1 Corinthians 14:9- "So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air."
Ephesians 2:2- "Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:"
Revelation 9:2- "And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit."
Revelation 16:17- "And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done."
In none of those examples does "aēr" refer to "breathe of life".
Regarding "clouds", you're trying to take the exception to the common meaning. However, "clouds" clearly refers to literal "clouds" throughout most of Scripture. You are suggesting that the apostles had no sense of descriptive ability in Acts 1, when the Lord was taken up on a "cloud". Had it been a "throng" of saints, either the apostles or angels would have said as much. But when one depends on reaching interpretation based on uncommon usages, that's what you get.
"in the air" is not an idiom for "breath of life". The Greek "pneuma" is breath. Paul used the Greek "aēr", which is the air/atmosphere:
"Aēr" clearly refers to literal air, and it's what's used on 1 Thess 4:17:
First in English:
1 Thessalonians 4:17- "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
Now in Greek:
4:17 ἔπειτα ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι ἅμα σὺν αὐτοῖς ἁρπαγησόμεθα ἐν νεφέλαις εἰς ἀπάντησιν τοῦ κυρίου εἰς ἀέρα καὶ οὕτως πάντοτε σὺν κυρίῳ ἐσόμεθα
The word "άέρα" is "aēr" ("air"). Here are examples of it's usage elsewhere in Scripture:
Acts 22:23- "And as they cried out, and cast off their clothes, and threw dust into the air,"
1 Corinthians 9:26- "I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:"
1 Corinthians 14:9- "So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air."
Ephesians 2:2- "Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:"
Revelation 9:2- "And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit."
Revelation 16:17- "And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done."
In none of those examples does "aēr" refer to "breathe of life".
Regarding "clouds", you're trying to take the exception to the common meaning. However, "clouds" clearly refers to literal "clouds" throughout most of Scripture. You are suggesting that the apostles had no sense of descriptive ability in Acts 1, when the Lord was taken up on a "cloud". Had it been a "throng" of saints, either the apostles or angels would have said as much. But when one depends on reaching interpretation based on uncommon usages, that's what you get.
John- By the way, The Lord said that He
will send His angels to gather us from one end of the "ouranos" to
the other; From the four winds:
Matthew 24:31- "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect FROM THE FOUR WINDS, from one end of heaven to the other."
That's the sky:
Revelation 7:1- "And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding THE FOUR WINDS, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree."
Matthew 24:31- "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect FROM THE FOUR WINDS, from one end of heaven to the other."
That's the sky:
Revelation 7:1- "And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding THE FOUR WINDS, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree."
John- By the way, the Greek
"aēr" is where we get words like "airplane"
("aeroplano" in Spanish).
The word "pneuma" is where we get words like "pneumonia", "pneumothorax", etc.
"Pneuma" means "breath". "Aēr" means air/sky.
The word "pneuma" is where we get words like "pneumonia", "pneumothorax", etc.
"Pneuma" means "breath". "Aēr" means air/sky.
Mario- I don't detect any idiomic language. He says it plainly.
Jesus comes in the cloud.
I don't think they'd use the exact idiom in daniel 7 in mathew 24 in acts 1, in. 1 cor 15, in 1 thes 4 and rev 1 and rev 14. They all say it quite plainly. Usually an example of an idiom is how you put it earlier, "cloud of locusts". I don't see cloud of angels. I see jesus coming in the clouds up in the sky with angels.
I don't think they'd use the exact idiom in daniel 7 in mathew 24 in acts 1, in. 1 cor 15, in 1 thes 4 and rev 1 and rev 14. They all say it quite plainly. Usually an example of an idiom is how you put it earlier, "cloud of locusts". I don't see cloud of angels. I see jesus coming in the clouds up in the sky with angels.
Don- The word for "air" in 1 Thess 4:17 is:
aer
NT:109 aer (ah-ayr'); from aemi (to breathe unconsciously, i.e. respire; by analogy, to blow); "air" (as naturally circumambient):
This word here is used as a Hebraism for the breath of life spiritual body. It is equivalent to the Hebrew word "ruwach".
aer
NT:109 aer (ah-ayr'); from aemi (to breathe unconsciously, i.e. respire; by analogy, to blow); "air" (as naturally circumambient):
This word here is used as a Hebraism for the breath of life spiritual body. It is equivalent to the Hebrew word "ruwach".
Don- Mario, do you understand what an idiom is?
John- Rev. 19:14 says that the armies
follow Him out of Heaven. He doesn't leave Heaven riding on top of the armies.
John- Don, frankly, I don't think you
get Greek. Paul didn't use the root word "aemi". He used
"aēr". Your argument reminds me of how pretrib teachers like to claim
"apostasia" in 2 Thess 2:3 means "departure" (as in
geographical departure) based on the "root word", rather than the
actual word.
It's erroneous.
It's erroneous.
Don- Hey if you all want to believe that you are going to fly up in
the sky and in the clouds to meet Christ and his angels, hey go for it.
Mario - Well understand that Jesus appears on earth, gathers the
saints and goes back to heaven
Don- Heaven will be on Earth when Christ returns.
Don- John, Do you know how to use a Strong's
Concordance with the King James?
Don- aer
Here is the word for "air" in 1 Thess 4:17:
NT:109 aer (ah-ayr'); from aemi (to breathe unconsciously, i.e. respire; by analogy, to blow); "air" (as naturally circumambient):
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)
Here is the word for "air" in 1 Thess 4:17:
NT:109 aer (ah-ayr'); from aemi (to breathe unconsciously, i.e. respire; by analogy, to blow); "air" (as naturally circumambient):
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)
John-Yes, I think I'll do that, Don.
I'll believe Paul.
Say, I've got an idea, Don. You go right ahead and show a single verse in Scripture which uses "aēr" like you're claiming it should be used in 1 Thess 4:17.
Say, I've got an idea, Don. You go right ahead and show a single verse in Scripture which uses "aēr" like you're claiming it should be used in 1 Thess 4:17.
Mario- Nope. Jesus will go back to heaven with us at seventh
trumpet.
Then God will proceed to pour out His wrath with 7 bowls.
Then Jesus will return with the white horse army for armageddon.
Then God will proceed to pour out His wrath with 7 bowls.
Then Jesus will return with the white horse army for armageddon.
Don John, I just showed you the Strong's definition for the word
"air" from 1 Thess 4:17. Do you choose not to believe the Strong's?
In order to understand the idiom you have to understand the Hebrew equivalent of the Greek word aer, which is "ruwach".
In order to understand the idiom you have to understand the Hebrew equivalent of the Greek word aer, which is "ruwach".
John- Mario, the Lord NEVER described
returning from Heaven at His second coming with ANYONE other than His angels.
John- Don, you're incorrect. Which is
why you're not going to be able to find any verses which back your claim.
Joseph Don, Wasn't the temple still standing when Paul penned these
words? Is there anything AT ALL that indicates that he was referring to a
rebuilt temple 2000 plus years into the future? Its a historical fact that the
temple was destroyed very shortly after Paul wrote Thess. No other temple was
referred to other than the one that was standing at the time of his writing.
Also, isn't it true that Jesus and ALL the Apostles believed, taught and fully expected the end of the age in their generation? How do you explain all the time statements that include the words, "at hand" "soon" "draweth nigh" "at the doors" "quickly" "This generation" ect?
Paul also had to correct the false teaching that was going around at this time concerning the timing of the resurrection. Some thought that it already happened. Doesn't this strike you as odd? If the first Christians believed anything close to the Rapture as taught today, why would they think it had already happened. All Paul had to do was say, "Hey guys. No one has left the earth yet. The bones are still in the graveyards, ect." But he didn't do that. He only corrected the TIMING of the resurrection, not the nature of it. It is very clear that the first Christians believed something VERY different about these things than most Western Christians do today. This is a question that most definitely deserves attention and some thought, IMO. I think the popular eschatological views of today are way off the mark. I think these things should be understood in covenantal terms instead of cosmic terms.
Also, isn't it true that Jesus and ALL the Apostles believed, taught and fully expected the end of the age in their generation? How do you explain all the time statements that include the words, "at hand" "soon" "draweth nigh" "at the doors" "quickly" "This generation" ect?
Paul also had to correct the false teaching that was going around at this time concerning the timing of the resurrection. Some thought that it already happened. Doesn't this strike you as odd? If the first Christians believed anything close to the Rapture as taught today, why would they think it had already happened. All Paul had to do was say, "Hey guys. No one has left the earth yet. The bones are still in the graveyards, ect." But he didn't do that. He only corrected the TIMING of the resurrection, not the nature of it. It is very clear that the first Christians believed something VERY different about these things than most Western Christians do today. This is a question that most definitely deserves attention and some thought, IMO. I think the popular eschatological views of today are way off the mark. I think these things should be understood in covenantal terms instead of cosmic terms.
John- Joseph, did the resurrection occur
in 70 A.D.?
Don- Used figuratively "air" in 1 Thess 4:17 refers to
spirit or the spiritual body. Look at 1 Cor 15:52-53. This is the same event as
1 Thess 4:16-17.
When you tie it all together you should be able to see and understand the Hebraisms being used.
When you tie it all together you should be able to see and understand the Hebraisms being used.
John- Where are those verses, Don?
John- It's not being used
"figuratively". "aēr" does NOT mean "breath of
life". I've shown what words are derived from both "aēr" and
"pneuma". Greek and Latin word roots was a class I took even before
medical school, as many medical terms are derived from both Latin and Greek,
Don.
You're kicking against the goads, and not a single Greek scholar would agree with you.
You're kicking against the goads, and not a single Greek scholar would agree with you.
Don- Joseph Part of the
Western Wall of Herod's temple still stands today. The Jews call it the wailing
wall and they pray next to it all the time.
Joseph John, IN the chapter where Paul spoke of the resurrection
(1Cor 15), what did he say gave death its sting and what and what gave sin its
strength? 1Cor 15:56 answers a lot of questions if we think about it.
John- Joseph , are you denying a bodily
resurrection?
Don- John, I'll ask you again. Do you have any idea of how to use a
Strong's Concordance?
I've just showed you the Strong's definition 2 or 3 times. Do you understand how to read the Strong's?
I've just showed you the Strong's definition 2 or 3 times. Do you understand how to read the Strong's?
John- Don, you've done this before. I would
suggest that you drop the condescending talk immediately.
Don- Here is the word for "air" in 1 Thess 4:17:
NT:109 aer (ah-ayr'); from aemi (to breathe unconsciously, i.e. respire; by analogy, to blow); "air" (as naturally circumambient):
NT:109 aer (ah-ayr'); from aemi (to breathe unconsciously, i.e. respire; by analogy, to blow); "air" (as naturally circumambient):
John- Here, because you apparently
missed these posts:
That's a classic Arnold Murray (Shepherd's Chapel) teaching.
"in the air" is not an idiom for "breath of life". The Greek "pneuma" is breath. Paul used the Greek "aēr", which is the air/atmosphere:
"Aēr" clearly refers to literal air, and it's what's used on 1 Thess 4:17:
First in English:
1 Thessalonians 4:17- "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
Now in Greek:
4:17 ἔπειτα ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι ἅμα σὺν αὐτοῖς ἁρπαγησόμεθα ἐν νεφέλαις εἰς ἀπάντησιν τοῦ κυρίου εἰς ἀέρα καὶ οὕτως πάντοτε σὺν κυρίῳ ἐσόμεθα
The word "άέρα" is "aēr" ("air"). Here are examples of it's usage elsewhere in Scripture:
Acts 22:23- "And as they cried out, and cast off their clothes, and threw dust into the air,"
1 Corinthians 9:26- "I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:"
1 Corinthians 14:9- "So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air."
Ephesians 2:2- "Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:"
Revelation 9:2- "And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit."
Revelation 16:17- "And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done."
In none of those examples does "aēr" refer to "breathe of life".
Regarding "clouds", you're trying to take the exception to the common meaning. However, "clouds" clearly refers to literal "clouds" throughout most of Scripture. You are suggesting that the apostles had no sense of descriptive ability in Acts 1, when the Lord was taken up on a "cloud". Had it been a "throng" of saints, either the apostles or angels would have said as much. But when one depends on reaching interpretation based on uncommon usages, that's what you get.
That's a classic Arnold Murray (Shepherd's Chapel) teaching.
"in the air" is not an idiom for "breath of life". The Greek "pneuma" is breath. Paul used the Greek "aēr", which is the air/atmosphere:
"Aēr" clearly refers to literal air, and it's what's used on 1 Thess 4:17:
First in English:
1 Thessalonians 4:17- "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
Now in Greek:
4:17 ἔπειτα ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι ἅμα σὺν αὐτοῖς ἁρπαγησόμεθα ἐν νεφέλαις εἰς ἀπάντησιν τοῦ κυρίου εἰς ἀέρα καὶ οὕτως πάντοτε σὺν κυρίῳ ἐσόμεθα
The word "άέρα" is "aēr" ("air"). Here are examples of it's usage elsewhere in Scripture:
Acts 22:23- "And as they cried out, and cast off their clothes, and threw dust into the air,"
1 Corinthians 9:26- "I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:"
1 Corinthians 14:9- "So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air."
Ephesians 2:2- "Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:"
Revelation 9:2- "And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit."
Revelation 16:17- "And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done."
In none of those examples does "aēr" refer to "breathe of life".
Regarding "clouds", you're trying to take the exception to the common meaning. However, "clouds" clearly refers to literal "clouds" throughout most of Scripture. You are suggesting that the apostles had no sense of descriptive ability in Acts 1, when the Lord was taken up on a "cloud". Had it been a "throng" of saints, either the apostles or angels would have said as much. But when one depends on reaching interpretation based on uncommon usages, that's what you get.
John- By the way, The Lord said that He
will send His angels to gather us from one end of the "ouranos" to
the other; From the four winds:
Matthew 24:31- "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect FROM THE FOUR WINDS, from one end of heaven to the other."
That's the sky:
Revelation 7:1- "And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding THE FOUR WINDS, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree."
Matthew 24:31- "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect FROM THE FOUR WINDS, from one end of heaven to the other."
That's the sky:
Revelation 7:1- "And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding THE FOUR WINDS, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree."
John- By the way, the Greek
"aēr" is where we get words like "airplane"
("aeroplano" in Spanish).
The word "pneuma" is where we get words like "pneumonia", "pneumothorax", etc.
"Pneuma" means "breath". "Aēr" means air/sky.
The word "pneuma" is where we get words like "pneumonia", "pneumothorax", etc.
"Pneuma" means "breath". "Aēr" means air/sky.
John- Don, frankly, I don't think you
get Greek. Paul didn't use the root word "aemi". He used
"aēr". Your argument reminds me of how pretrib teachers like to claim
"apostasia" in 2 Thess 2:3 means "departure" (as in
geographical departure) based on the "root word", rather than the
actual word.
It's erroneous.
It's erroneous.
Joseph- John, I didnt deny anything. I was affirming the present
reality of the resurrection.
Does anyone have any answers to offer to the questions I asked earlier. I'm surprised that this didn't even provoke a response. Well, not really. I haven't got an answer to this day to those questions. Anyone?
Does anyone have any answers to offer to the questions I asked earlier. I'm surprised that this didn't even provoke a response. Well, not really. I haven't got an answer to this day to those questions. Anyone?
Don- Arnold Murray has nothing to do with it. Did you used to study
with him? You seem to not like him. Who cares about Arnold Murray?
John- Joseph, you've been kind in every one of
your posts, but it is absolute heresy for you to suggest that the resurrection
of believers will be figurative. Was the Lord's resurrection figurative as
well?
Joseph- John, Just quote the post where I suggested that the
resurrection is figurative.
John- WAS THE "RESURRECTION" A
FIGURATIVE EVENT OF 70 A.D., OR WILL IT BE A LITERAL, FUTURE, BODILY
RESURRECTION AT THE LORD'S RETURN?
Let's see what the early church fathers had to say about it:
"There will be a future resurrection." Clement of Rome (c. 96)
"If we please Him in the present world, we will also inherit the future world. For He promised to us that He will raise us again from the dead." Polycarp (c. 135)
"I give you thanks...that I can have a part...in the resurrection of eternal life, both of soul and body." Martyrdom of Polycarp (c. 135)
"Let none of you say that this very flesh will not be judged, nor rise again...For just as you were called in the flesh, you will also come to be judged in the flesh." Second Clement (c. 150)
"Even if anyone is laboring under a defect of body, yet he is an observer of the doctrines delivered by Christ, He will raise him up at His second advent perfectly sound. He will make him immortal, incorruptible, and free from grief." Justin Martyr (c. 160)
"Those who maintain the wrong opinion say that there is no resurrection of the flesh." Justin Martyr (c. 160)
"God will raise your flesh immortal with your soul; and then, having become immortal, you will see the Immortal, if you now believe on Him." Theophilus (c. 180)
"But vain in every respect are they [i.e., the Gnostics] who despise the entire dispensation of God, and disallow the salvation of the flesh, and treat with contempt the regeneration of the flesh, maintaining that it is not capable of incorruption." Irenaeus (c. 180)
"In the resurrection, the soul returns to the body." Clement of Alexandria (c. 195)
"The resurrection is first, and afterwards the kingdom. We say, therefore, that the flesh rises again. We say that when it has changed, it obtains the kingdom. 'For the dead will be raised incorruptible'...and 'we will be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.'" Tertullian (c. 207)
"If [the heretics] also admit that there is a resurrection of the dead, let them answer us this: What is it that died? Was it not the body? It is of the body, then, that there will be a resurrection." Origen (c. 225)
"A law of resurrection is established in that Christ was raised up in the substance of the body as an example for the rest." Novatian (c. 235)
"Believe in the one God, so that when you are dead, you may live and may rise in His kingdom, when there will be the resurrection of the just." Commodianus (c. 240)
"It is patently absurd to think that the body will not co-exist with the soul in the eternal state." Methodius (c. 290)
"The Almighty God Himself will...grant us a resurrection with all those who have slept from the beginning of the world. And we will then be such as we are now in this present form, but without any defect or corruption. For we will rise incorruptible." Apostolic Constitutions (c. 390)
Let's see what the early church fathers had to say about it:
"There will be a future resurrection." Clement of Rome (c. 96)
"If we please Him in the present world, we will also inherit the future world. For He promised to us that He will raise us again from the dead." Polycarp (c. 135)
"I give you thanks...that I can have a part...in the resurrection of eternal life, both of soul and body." Martyrdom of Polycarp (c. 135)
"Let none of you say that this very flesh will not be judged, nor rise again...For just as you were called in the flesh, you will also come to be judged in the flesh." Second Clement (c. 150)
"Even if anyone is laboring under a defect of body, yet he is an observer of the doctrines delivered by Christ, He will raise him up at His second advent perfectly sound. He will make him immortal, incorruptible, and free from grief." Justin Martyr (c. 160)
"Those who maintain the wrong opinion say that there is no resurrection of the flesh." Justin Martyr (c. 160)
"God will raise your flesh immortal with your soul; and then, having become immortal, you will see the Immortal, if you now believe on Him." Theophilus (c. 180)
"But vain in every respect are they [i.e., the Gnostics] who despise the entire dispensation of God, and disallow the salvation of the flesh, and treat with contempt the regeneration of the flesh, maintaining that it is not capable of incorruption." Irenaeus (c. 180)
"In the resurrection, the soul returns to the body." Clement of Alexandria (c. 195)
"The resurrection is first, and afterwards the kingdom. We say, therefore, that the flesh rises again. We say that when it has changed, it obtains the kingdom. 'For the dead will be raised incorruptible'...and 'we will be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.'" Tertullian (c. 207)
"If [the heretics] also admit that there is a resurrection of the dead, let them answer us this: What is it that died? Was it not the body? It is of the body, then, that there will be a resurrection." Origen (c. 225)
"A law of resurrection is established in that Christ was raised up in the substance of the body as an example for the rest." Novatian (c. 235)
"Believe in the one God, so that when you are dead, you may live and may rise in His kingdom, when there will be the resurrection of the just." Commodianus (c. 240)
"It is patently absurd to think that the body will not co-exist with the soul in the eternal state." Methodius (c. 290)
"The Almighty God Himself will...grant us a resurrection with all those who have slept from the beginning of the world. And we will then be such as we are now in this present form, but without any defect or corruption. For we will rise incorruptible." Apostolic Constitutions (c. 390)
Mario- John, i never said Jesus comes with anything
more than the angels.
Joseph- Not as concerned about what the Church fathers said about the
resurrection as I am about what the Bible says.
But, I believe the resurrection was a literal event. There was nothing figurative about it. But, the nature of the resurrection is misunderstood by many today, IMO.
But, I believe the resurrection was a literal event. There was nothing figurative about it. But, the nature of the resurrection is misunderstood by many today, IMO.
Joseph - John, Do you believe we go straight to Heaven when we die?
John- Okay, Mario. I get it. SDA
teaching. So the Earth is the "pit", despite the locusts arising out
of the pit to harm those on the Earth:
Revelation 9:2-3: "And he opened the BOTTOMLESS PIT; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts UPON THE EARTH: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions OF THE EARTH have power."
Revelation 20:3- "And cast him into the BOTTOMLESS PIT, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled:and after that he must be loosed a little season."
Don you see that, Mario. The locusts come out of the bottomless pit, to harm those on the Earth, and the locusts are even compared/contrasted with scorpions which live on Earth.
Revelation 9:2-3: "And he opened the BOTTOMLESS PIT; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts UPON THE EARTH: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions OF THE EARTH have power."
Revelation 20:3- "And cast him into the BOTTOMLESS PIT, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled:and after that he must be loosed a little season."
Don you see that, Mario. The locusts come out of the bottomless pit, to harm those on the Earth, and the locusts are even compared/contrasted with scorpions which live on Earth.
John- No, Joseph , I don't believe we go to Heaven at
death.
Joseph- Why not?
John- I'll pull up the thread.
Don- John, again, I have showed you the Strong's definition, But
you just seem to ignore it. The equivalent word in the Hebrew is
"ruwach" and that word also means to breathe.
OT:7308 ruwach (Aramaic) (roo'-akh); corresponding to OT:7307: KJV - mind, spirit, wind.
ruwach
OT:7307 ruwach (roo'-akh); from OT:7306; wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively, life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension, a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions):
When Christ returns at the 7th trump we are all changed into our spiritual bodies as stated in 1 Cor 15:52-54.
The same same event is described in 1 Thess 4:14-17.
OT:7308 ruwach (Aramaic) (roo'-akh); corresponding to OT:7307: KJV - mind, spirit, wind.
ruwach
OT:7307 ruwach (roo'-akh); from OT:7306; wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively, life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension, a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions):
When Christ returns at the 7th trump we are all changed into our spiritual bodies as stated in 1 Cor 15:52-54.
The same same event is described in 1 Thess 4:14-17.
Joseph- If we don't go immediately into the presence of God upon physical
death, that means the redemptive work of Christ is incomplete.
John- Don, where are the verses? You keep
repeating yourself, but the easiest way to prove your claim would be for you to
provide evidence of a single verse in the NT where "aēr" means what
you claim it means.
Mario- John,what are you trying to.say
John- Mario, the Lord doesn't come,
fetch us, and take us to Heaven for 1,000 years, while Satan roams a wasteland
of an Earth as the "pit". The Lord comes, and we stay here with Him.
The New Jerusalem comes to US after the millennium.
Mario- That's not what i claimed at all. I believe that there is
the 3.5 trib ended at the sixth seal (the commencement of the period know as
the day of the lord). all the trib surviving saints get sealed. followed by the
6 trumps Followed by 7th trump of jesus second coming and rapture. They go to
heaven. The the seven bowls then jesus comes a third time to fight armageddon.
The jesus rules on earth for a 1000 years the creates new earth (eternal age)
John- A 3rd time? Would you mind showing
a single OT description of the DoTL which has the Lord coming, fetching us,
returning to Heaven, and then coming yet again later?
Mario- I'm sorry but revelation is where it is shown.
Don- John, 1 Thess 4:16-17
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air : and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV
Trump of God = 7th trump.
In the Clouds = idiom for large group of angels.
In the air = In the spiritual body.
Of course 1 Thess 4:16-17 is describing the same event as 1 Cor 15:52-54 where we are changed into our spiritual bodies at the last trump (7th trump).
To get Paul's meaning of "air" in 1 Thess 4:17 we have to take it back to the Hebrew equivalent for "air" to see where the figure of speech comes from.
The words for breath and spirit are many times translated from the same Hebrew word 7307 ruwach.
Another Hebrew word 5397 neshamah has the same meaning.
These 2 Hebrew words are equivalent to the Greek word 109 "aer".
Here are several examples of the use of "ruwach" and "neshamah".
Gen 2:7
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath (5397) of life; and man became a living soul.
KJV
Gen 6:17
17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath (7307) of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.
KJV
Gen 7:15
15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath (7307) of life.
KJV
Gen 7:22
22 All in whose nostrils was the breath (5397) of life (7307), of all that was in the dry land, died.
KJV
Gen 6:3
3 And the LORD said, My spirit (7307) shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
KJV
Joel 2:28-29
28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit (7307) upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit (7307) .
KJV
OT:7307 ruwach (roo'-akh); from OT:7306; wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively, life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension, a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions):
KJV - air, anger, blast, breath, cool, courage, mind, quarter, side, spirit ([-ual]), tempest, vain, ([whirl-]) wind (-y).
OT:5397 neshamah (nesh-aw-maw'); from OT:5395; a puff, i.e. wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect. or (concretely) an animal:
KJV - blast, (that) breath (-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air : and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV
Trump of God = 7th trump.
In the Clouds = idiom for large group of angels.
In the air = In the spiritual body.
Of course 1 Thess 4:16-17 is describing the same event as 1 Cor 15:52-54 where we are changed into our spiritual bodies at the last trump (7th trump).
To get Paul's meaning of "air" in 1 Thess 4:17 we have to take it back to the Hebrew equivalent for "air" to see where the figure of speech comes from.
The words for breath and spirit are many times translated from the same Hebrew word 7307 ruwach.
Another Hebrew word 5397 neshamah has the same meaning.
These 2 Hebrew words are equivalent to the Greek word 109 "aer".
Here are several examples of the use of "ruwach" and "neshamah".
Gen 2:7
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath (5397) of life; and man became a living soul.
KJV
Gen 6:17
17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath (7307) of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.
KJV
Gen 7:15
15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath (7307) of life.
KJV
Gen 7:22
22 All in whose nostrils was the breath (5397) of life (7307), of all that was in the dry land, died.
KJV
Gen 6:3
3 And the LORD said, My spirit (7307) shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
KJV
Joel 2:28-29
28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit (7307) upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit (7307) .
KJV
OT:7307 ruwach (roo'-akh); from OT:7306; wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively, life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension, a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions):
KJV - air, anger, blast, breath, cool, courage, mind, quarter, side, spirit ([-ual]), tempest, vain, ([whirl-]) wind (-y).
OT:5397 neshamah (nesh-aw-maw'); from OT:5395; a puff, i.e. wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect. or (concretely) an animal:
KJV - blast, (that) breath (-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit.
Fred- Hello Don, is this thread still under discussion? May I jump
in on this subject?
Don- I would assume that all threads in this forum are open to
discussion, Fred .
Fred- thanks Don
Fred- Don, I think you are laboring under a misunderstand regarding
this verse
Fred- rather this passage
Fred- 2 Thess 2:1-4 not only is easy to understand, but actually
SUPPORTS the pre-trib position
Don- Well, Fred, I think Paul makes it
very clear that there is no gathering to Christ until after the False Christ
causes the apostasy of the church by his claiming to be God.
Fred-my contention is this about your argument or at least your analysis, that the
"day of Christ" is not the same as the rapture. If you will read the
passage with this change in mind you will see that it very much supports the
pre-trib position.
Don- I would say that you are completely wrong, Fred. I stand by
what I posted and will not twist words as the pre tribbers do.
Fred- well be that as it is, youre analysis does not prove me
wrong, I can offer scriptures that prove otherwise, I think you will at least
admit that if I am right, that you conclusion about this passage is wrong and
is indeed a pre trib scripture
A
Yirmeyahu Yisrael The day of the Savior, is ONLY the day which He
returns to battle the wicked
Fred- in fact Don, your analysis does not prove that there is no
difference between the rapture and the "day of Christ", it is a wrong
assumption that you took for granted
Fred- In fact, reread II Thess.
2:1-2.............................Now we request you, brethren, with regard to
the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, AND our gathering together to Him, that
you may not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a
spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, that the day of the Lord has come...............................................Don
in this passage alone Paul differentiates the coming our the Lord, and our
gathering together to Him, and mentions the day of the Lord.....verses II Thess
1:7-10........................................7 and to you that are afflicted
rest with us, at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with the angels
of his power in flaming fire, 8 rendering vengeance to them that know not God,
and to them that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus: 9 who shall suffer
punishment, [even] eternal destruction from the face of the Lord and from the
glory of his might, 10 when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to
be marvelled at in all them that believed (because our testimony unto you was
believed) in that day................... Don the day of the revelation of the
Lord Jesus, or the "day of the Lord" here described in verses 7-10 is
not the same day as the rapture is described.
A
Yirmeyahu Yisrael The day of the Savior is not the day of the
rapture- Rev 22:12 “And see, I am coming speedily, and My reward is with Me, to
give to each according to his work
Fred- Yisrael, you are correct, it is not the same day and this is
why Don's argument is not correct, Don does not address the possibility that
they could be different events
A
Yirmeyahu Yisrael Rev_16:14 for they are spirits of demons, doing
signs, which go out to the sovereigns of the entire world, to gather them to
the battle of that great day of יהוה the Almighty. Rev_6:17 because the great
day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?” Rev_1:10 I came to be in
the Spirit on the Day of יהוה, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a
trumpet, 1Jn_4:17 By this love has been perfected with us, in order that we
might have boldness in the day of judgment, because as He is so are we in this
world. 2Pe_3:10 But the day of יהוה shall come as a thief in the night, in
which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall
melt with intense heat, and the earth and the works that are in it shall be
burned up.
2Pe_3:12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of Elohim, through which the heavens shall be destroyed, being set 2Pe_3:7 And the present heavens and the earth are treasured up by the same Word, being kept for fire, to a day of judgment and destruction of wicked men.
2Pe_3:12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of Elohim, through which the heavens shall be destroyed, being set 2Pe_3:7 And the present heavens and the earth are treasured up by the same Word, being kept for fire, to a day of judgment and destruction of wicked men.
A
Yirmeyahu Yisrael And there is still more
Fred- in fact, the Day of the Lord is described in Revelation 19:
11-16 11 And I saw the heaven opened; and behold, a white horse, and he that
sat thereon called Faithful and True; and in righteous he doth judge and make
war. 12 And his eyes [are] a flame of fire, and upon his head [are] many
diadems; and he hath a name written which no one knoweth but he himself. 13 And
he [is] arrayed in a garment sprinkled with blood: and his name is called The
Word of God. 14 And the armies which are in heaven followed him upon white
horses, clothed in fine linen, white [and] pure. 15 And out of his mouth
proceedeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he
shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the
fierceness of the wrath of God, the Almighty. 16 And he hath on his garment and
on his thigh a name written, KINGS OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.....I bet Don
cannot guess who the armies which are in heaven following HIM on white horses,
clothed in fine linen are........these are the raptured christians!!....see
Rev. 7:13-14 13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, These that are
arrayed in white robes, who are they, and whence came they? 14 And I say unto
him, My lord, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they that come of the
great tribulation, and they washed their robes, and made them white in the
blood of the Lamb.
Angie- The day of the Lord begins with His permanent arrival.
He's not coming back for a visit. He remains in heaven until the day of
restitution. The earth isn't restored seven years prior in a secret visit.
Don- Fred, the armies which return with Christ at his
second coming are the dead in Christ. They are those Christians who have lived
and died over the centuries and are now his armies of angels.
Fred- When the rapture occurs Angie, Christ does not come to dwell
on earth, but to receive the faithful to Himself. See I Thess
4:15-17........................................................................................15
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that
are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are
fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout,
with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in
Christ shall rise first; 17 then we that are alive, that are left, shall
together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and
so shall we ever be with the
Lord...................................................................................at
the rapture Christ does not come down to inhabit the earch, rather WE ARE CAUGHT
UP IN THE CLOUDS TO MEE THE LORD IN THE AIR!!!!!!!!!
Fred- See also John 14:1-3 where Christ Jesus tells the disciples
that this is going to happen............................................................................................1
Let not your heart be troubled: believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my
Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you; for
I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I
come again, and will receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may
be also.
Angie- Jesus doesn't leave heaven until the day comes to
restore the earth. He's only leaving heaven once more, and that's a one-way
trip.
Angie- WHy have you added the word "[there]"? The
original Greek says nothing about "there", because Jesus doesn't receive
us unto Himself THERE. He receives us unto Himself HERE, in the clouds of
Earth, on the way to set up His millenial kingdom.
A
Yirmeyahu Yisrael Sadly Fred, you do error in your view.
Angie-
Fred- yes Don, the dead in Christ will be part of that group, but
also the RAPTURED saints as well, you must admit now Don that the rapture,
described in I THESS 4:15-17 is a totally different event than that described
in Rev 19-11-16
A
Yirmeyahu Yisrael fred, you should study up in the book of
Revelation.
Fred- I have studied Revelation all my life, even from a pre teen
Angie- There are no "raptured saints", "Old
Testament saints" or "tribulation saints". There are only
"saints". ALL are part of the body of Christ, and Jesus is coming
back ONCE for all those who sleep in Christ.
Fred- my view is correct Yisrael, you have not shown proof to the
contrary, and Angie, the scriptures show different from "THE DEAD IN
CHRIST" and "WE WHO ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN",shall meet the Lord in
the air,
Fred- Angie was just quoting a scripture, regarding the word
"there" which scripture are you referring to?
A
Yirmeyahu Yisrael Rev 19:11 And I saw the heaven opened, and there
was a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Trustworthy and True, and
in righteousness He judges and fights.1 Footnote: 1See Acts 10:42.
Rev 19:12 And His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns, having a Name that had been written, which no one had perceived except Himself1 – Footnote: 1See 2:17.
Rev 19:13 and having been dressed in a robe dipped in blood – and His Name is called: The Word of יהוה.1 Footnote: 1John 1:1 & 14.
Rev 19:14 And the armies in the heaven, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.
Rev 19:15 And out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should smite the nations. And He shall shepherd them with a rod of iron. And He treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Ěl Shaddai.
Rev 19:16 And on His robe and on His thigh1 He has a name written: SOVEREIGN OF SOVEREIGNS AND MASTER OF MASTERS. Footnote: 1See Explanatory notes under Thigh.
Rev 19:17 And I saw one messenger standing in the sun, and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in mid-heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great Elohim,
Rev 19:18 to eat the flesh of sovereigns, and the flesh of commanders, and the flesh of strong ones, and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the sovereigns of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to fight Him who sat on the horse and His army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he led astray those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshipped his image. The two were thrown alive into the lake of fire burning with sulphur.
Rev 19:21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.
Rev 19:12 And His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns, having a Name that had been written, which no one had perceived except Himself1 – Footnote: 1See 2:17.
Rev 19:13 and having been dressed in a robe dipped in blood – and His Name is called: The Word of יהוה.1 Footnote: 1John 1:1 & 14.
Rev 19:14 And the armies in the heaven, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.
Rev 19:15 And out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should smite the nations. And He shall shepherd them with a rod of iron. And He treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Ěl Shaddai.
Rev 19:16 And on His robe and on His thigh1 He has a name written: SOVEREIGN OF SOVEREIGNS AND MASTER OF MASTERS. Footnote: 1See Explanatory notes under Thigh.
Rev 19:17 And I saw one messenger standing in the sun, and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in mid-heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great Elohim,
Rev 19:18 to eat the flesh of sovereigns, and the flesh of commanders, and the flesh of strong ones, and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the sovereigns of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to fight Him who sat on the horse and His army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he led astray those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshipped his image. The two were thrown alive into the lake of fire burning with sulphur.
Rev 19:21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.
Angie- 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I come
again, and will receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be
also.
Angie- The word "THERE" is nonexistent.
A
Yirmeyahu Yisrael Fred Sadler my view is correct Yisrael, you have
not shown proof to the contrary,"? I just posted some of the proofs
Angie- Where is Jesus when He receives us unto Himself? At
the earth in the clouds, or in the 3rd heaven with the Father?
Fred- Angie, thank you, yes John 14 1-3, the word "there"
is not in the original, so you can read as follows without deep
analysis....................................................................................3
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I come again, and will receive you unto
myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be
also............................................................................Angie
you missed in my original quote that the word [there] is in brackets meaning it
is not in the original, as above quoted
Angie- Exactly. Read it WITHOUT the added "there".
Fred- Yisrael, you quoted some scriptures that detail the day of
Christ when He returns with the armies of heaven, this though is not the
rapture
Angie- Again I ask, WHERE is Jesus when we are gathered to
Him, when He receives us unto Himself- at Earth in the clouds, or in the third
heaven with the Father?
Fred- Angie, according to I thess 4:15-17, we shall MEET THE LORD
IN THE AIR as is also described in John 14:1-3, THAT WHERE I AM, YOU MAY BE,
the implication is we are received to MY FATHERS HOUSE
Angie- Implied by whom???
Angie- Why would you assume it is "implied" that we
are taken to the Father?
Angie- That is NOWHERE in Scripture. Jesus is NOT with His
Father when He receives us. He is HERE.
Angie- He is here to restore the earth and set up His
millenial kingdom. What purpose is there in returning to the Father??
Fred- I want to deal with your argument Angie, if you want to
create another thread, but I am trying to discuss Don's thread here,
A
Yirmeyahu Yisrael Here, try this on for a change- Act 1:10 And as
they were gazing into the heaven as He went up, see, two men stood by them
dressed in white,
Act 1:11 who also said, “Men of Galil, why do you stand looking up into the heaven? This same יהושע, who was taken up from you into the heaven, shall come in the same way1 as you saw Him go into the heaven.”
Act 1:11 who also said, “Men of Galil, why do you stand looking up into the heaven? This same יהושע, who was taken up from you into the heaven, shall come in the same way1 as you saw Him go into the heaven.”
Angie- Sure thing, Fred.
A
Yirmeyahu Yisrael Act 1:9 And having said this, while they were
looking on, He was taken up, and a cloud hid Him from their sight.
Fred- thank you Angie, I want to discuss John 14:1-3, but just on a
different thread
A
Yirmeyahu Yisrael Joh 14:1 “Let not your heart be troubled. Believe
in Elohim, believe also in Me.
Joh 14:2 “In My Father’s house are many staying places. And if not, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 “And if I go and prepare a place for you, I shall come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, you might be too.
Joh 14:2 “In My Father’s house are many staying places. And if not, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 “And if I go and prepare a place for you, I shall come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, you might be too.
Fred- Yisrael, yes I see Acts 1:9-11, but this passage has been
argued as a rapture scripture as well as a day of the Lord scripture
A
Yirmeyahu Yisrael Now as it says, He will return the same way He
left, right?
Fred- just so there will be no confusion Yisrael, in John 14:1 the
word for God is not elohim, but "theon"
Fred- ok, Yesrael, Acts 1:9-11 could be argued as a rapture
scripture, some have argued it as a day of the Lord scripture,
A
Yirmeyahu Yisrael Sadly, you base yours from the Greek based. The
Hebrew is Elohim. Would you like the scripture from the Tanok or the Torah? Elohim
means mighty one
A
Yirmeyahu Yisrael Something to think about- 11th day of the 1st
month- 1st day of the week-
The anointing of the Messiah/Savior with the costly perfume
This event took place in the afternoon hours on the 11th while He was in Bethany per Mat. 26:6
At some point ether during the night or the morning hours on the 11th, He left the temple area where He was the previously per Mat. 21:23-46; Mar 11:27-33; Luk_19:47-48; 20:1-8.
-> The distance from Bĕyth Anyah (Bethany) was less than two miles (about fifteen furlongs) from Yerushalayim (Jerusalem). A distance of two Sabbath day’s journey, a distance The Savior would not have traveled during the 7th day Sabbath.
Mat 26:2 “You know that after two days the Passover takes place, and the Son of Aḏam is to be delivered up to be impaled.” Mar 14:1
Note- The meaning of “…after two days the Passover takes place…” means that after the sun has set of the 13th of the month, begins the new day (the 14th of the month) when the Passover meal (that of the household) is to be eaten. This statement was made in the afternoon hours of the 11th. So from the afternoon hours of the 11th to the afternoon hours of the 13th is two days. On the 13th in the evening, at sunset begins the “after” part that begins the new day of the 14th and the beginning of the commanded (religious) observance of Passover. So the math of “After two days” is a time span of three days.
The Savior was giving a timetable of the order of events that was going to take place.
The Savior being anointed-
Mat 26:6 And when יהושע was in Bĕyth Anyah at the house of Shimʽon the jar merchant,
Mat 26:7 a woman came to Him, having an alabaster flask of costly perfume, and she poured it on His head as He sat at the table
Mat 26:6-13; Mark 14:3-9; Luke 7:36-40; John 11:2, 12:3-8
Note:
The woman with the costly perfume-
#1: Both Matt. 26:6-13; Mark 14:3-9 accounts, is nearly the same.
#2: In Luke’s account 7:36-40; is the same story, but told a different way and at a different time placement (earlier in the Messiah’s ministry (+/- two years?)) than the other three accounts.
#3: In John’s account 11:2, 12:3-8; same story, but told at a different time placement of three days earlier (based from the civil view perspective) than Matthew and Mark. But because the supper is the evening meal, evening being the beginning of the new day (based in religious observance perspective).This event would be viewed as two days earlier than Matthew’s and Mark’s account. This would mean that John’s account of the supper would be five days before the Savior’s Passover meal and the actual date would be on 9th day of the month as the sun was setting to closing out and the ending of the 8th day of the month.
Shimʽon the leper-
#1: Being a leper is from the Greek, in the Hebrew he is a jar merchant, in the Aramaic he is a potter.
#2: Shimʽon {(the leper- Greek)/ (jar merchant- Hebrew)/ (Potter- Aramaic)} a Pharisee and the father of Yehuḏah from Qerioth (Judas of Iscariot) John 13:26
Notes: There are those who claim that the Savior healed him, if so where can that be found? And if so, than Shimʽon would no longer be a leper, thus this continual reference creates another problem-
We are commanded not to bear a false witness against anyone
Exo 20:16 “You do not bear false witness against your neighbor.
Lev 19:16 ‘Do not go slandering among your people…
Thus with the continual references to him as a leper would be false, would also cause continual harm.
Anyone who touches them is unclean. Anyone who touches anything that ether belongs to or the leper touches becomes unclean.
Lepers where not allowed to live amongst the people, they became outcasts.
Lev 13:45 “As for the leper who has the infection, his garments are torn, and his head is uncovered, and he has to cover his upper lip and cry, ‘Unclean! Unclean!’
Lev 13:46 “He is unclean – all the days he has the infection he is unclean. He is unclean, and he dwells alone, his dwelling place is outside the camp.
Num 5:2 “Command the children of Yisra’ĕl to send out of the camp every leper, and everyone who has a discharge, and whoever becomes defiled for a being. Footnote: Defilement can be imparted from one to another.
Num 5:3 “Send out both male and female, send them outside the camp, so that they do not defile their camps in the midst of which I dwell.”
Num 12:10 And the cloud turned away from above the Tent, and look: Miryam was leprous, as white as snow! And Aharon turned toward Miryam, and look: a leper!
Num 12:11 And Aharon said to Mosheh, “Oh, my master! Please do not hold against us the sin in which we have done foolishly and in which we have sinned.
Num 12:12 “Please do not let her be as one dead when coming out of its mother’s womb, with our flesh half consumed!”
Num 12:13 And Mosheh cried out to יהוה, saying, “O Ěl, please heal her, please!”
Num 12:14 And יהוה said to Mosheh, “If her father had but spit in her face, would she not be ashamed seven days? Let her be shut out of the camp seven days, and after that let her be readmitted.”
Num 12:15 And Miryam was shut out of the camp seven days, and the people did not set out until Miryam was readmitted.
The anointing of the Messiah/Savior with the costly perfume
This event took place in the afternoon hours on the 11th while He was in Bethany per Mat. 26:6
At some point ether during the night or the morning hours on the 11th, He left the temple area where He was the previously per Mat. 21:23-46; Mar 11:27-33; Luk_19:47-48; 20:1-8.
-> The distance from Bĕyth Anyah (Bethany) was less than two miles (about fifteen furlongs) from Yerushalayim (Jerusalem). A distance of two Sabbath day’s journey, a distance The Savior would not have traveled during the 7th day Sabbath.
Mat 26:2 “You know that after two days the Passover takes place, and the Son of Aḏam is to be delivered up to be impaled.” Mar 14:1
Note- The meaning of “…after two days the Passover takes place…” means that after the sun has set of the 13th of the month, begins the new day (the 14th of the month) when the Passover meal (that of the household) is to be eaten. This statement was made in the afternoon hours of the 11th. So from the afternoon hours of the 11th to the afternoon hours of the 13th is two days. On the 13th in the evening, at sunset begins the “after” part that begins the new day of the 14th and the beginning of the commanded (religious) observance of Passover. So the math of “After two days” is a time span of three days.
The Savior was giving a timetable of the order of events that was going to take place.
The Savior being anointed-
Mat 26:6 And when יהושע was in Bĕyth Anyah at the house of Shimʽon the jar merchant,
Mat 26:7 a woman came to Him, having an alabaster flask of costly perfume, and she poured it on His head as He sat at the table
Mat 26:6-13; Mark 14:3-9; Luke 7:36-40; John 11:2, 12:3-8
Note:
The woman with the costly perfume-
#1: Both Matt. 26:6-13; Mark 14:3-9 accounts, is nearly the same.
#2: In Luke’s account 7:36-40; is the same story, but told a different way and at a different time placement (earlier in the Messiah’s ministry (+/- two years?)) than the other three accounts.
#3: In John’s account 11:2, 12:3-8; same story, but told at a different time placement of three days earlier (based from the civil view perspective) than Matthew and Mark. But because the supper is the evening meal, evening being the beginning of the new day (based in religious observance perspective).This event would be viewed as two days earlier than Matthew’s and Mark’s account. This would mean that John’s account of the supper would be five days before the Savior’s Passover meal and the actual date would be on 9th day of the month as the sun was setting to closing out and the ending of the 8th day of the month.
Shimʽon the leper-
#1: Being a leper is from the Greek, in the Hebrew he is a jar merchant, in the Aramaic he is a potter.
#2: Shimʽon {(the leper- Greek)/ (jar merchant- Hebrew)/ (Potter- Aramaic)} a Pharisee and the father of Yehuḏah from Qerioth (Judas of Iscariot) John 13:26
Notes: There are those who claim that the Savior healed him, if so where can that be found? And if so, than Shimʽon would no longer be a leper, thus this continual reference creates another problem-
We are commanded not to bear a false witness against anyone
Exo 20:16 “You do not bear false witness against your neighbor.
Lev 19:16 ‘Do not go slandering among your people…
Thus with the continual references to him as a leper would be false, would also cause continual harm.
Anyone who touches them is unclean. Anyone who touches anything that ether belongs to or the leper touches becomes unclean.
Lepers where not allowed to live amongst the people, they became outcasts.
Lev 13:45 “As for the leper who has the infection, his garments are torn, and his head is uncovered, and he has to cover his upper lip and cry, ‘Unclean! Unclean!’
Lev 13:46 “He is unclean – all the days he has the infection he is unclean. He is unclean, and he dwells alone, his dwelling place is outside the camp.
Num 5:2 “Command the children of Yisra’ĕl to send out of the camp every leper, and everyone who has a discharge, and whoever becomes defiled for a being. Footnote: Defilement can be imparted from one to another.
Num 5:3 “Send out both male and female, send them outside the camp, so that they do not defile their camps in the midst of which I dwell.”
Num 12:10 And the cloud turned away from above the Tent, and look: Miryam was leprous, as white as snow! And Aharon turned toward Miryam, and look: a leper!
Num 12:11 And Aharon said to Mosheh, “Oh, my master! Please do not hold against us the sin in which we have done foolishly and in which we have sinned.
Num 12:12 “Please do not let her be as one dead when coming out of its mother’s womb, with our flesh half consumed!”
Num 12:13 And Mosheh cried out to יהוה, saying, “O Ěl, please heal her, please!”
Num 12:14 And יהוה said to Mosheh, “If her father had but spit in her face, would she not be ashamed seven days? Let her be shut out of the camp seven days, and after that let her be readmitted.”
Num 12:15 And Miryam was shut out of the camp seven days, and the people did not set out until Miryam was readmitted.
A
Yirmeyahu Yisrael Now notice what I stated about Simon? Shimʽon the
leper-
#1: Being a leper is from the Greek, in the Hebrew he is a jar merchant, in the Aramaic he is a potter.
#2: Shimʽon {(the leper- Greek)/ (jar merchant- Hebrew)/ (Potter- Aramaic)} a Pharisee and the father of Yehuḏah from Qerioth (Judas of Iscariot) John 13:26
#1: Being a leper is from the Greek, in the Hebrew he is a jar merchant, in the Aramaic he is a potter.
#2: Shimʽon {(the leper- Greek)/ (jar merchant- Hebrew)/ (Potter- Aramaic)} a Pharisee and the father of Yehuḏah from Qerioth (Judas of Iscariot) John 13:26
Fred- Yisrael, I am not following your argument here regarding II
thess 2
A
Yirmeyahu Yisrael Something else to think about- Gen 1:1 In the
beginning Elohim created the heavens and the earth. Exo 3:15 And Elohim said
further to Mosheh, “Thus you are to say to the children of Yisra’ĕl, ‘יהוה
Elohim of your fathers, the Elohim of Aḇraham, the Elohim of Yitsḥaq, and the
Elohim of Yaʽaqoḇ, has sent me to you. This is My Name forever, and this is My
remembrance to all generations.’ Exo 4:16 “And he shall speak for you to the
people. And it shall be that he shall be a mouth for you, and you shall be an
elohim1 for him. Footnote: 1Or mighty one, which is proof that elohim is but a
title, indicating order or authority – it is not a proper name.
A
Yirmeyahu Yisrael I am showing you the differences between the
Hebrew and your Greek based passages
A
Yirmeyahu Yisrael If I only had the Hebrew & the Aramaic
language scriptures on this laptop.
Fred- Yisrael, the Hebrew bible can be found online GO TO THIS LINK
http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/www/hebrew/Bible/
Fred- yes I see your comment regarding the hebrew and greek
passages, but I will say there is a vast discussion regarding Elohim in the
Godhead and Theon in the Greek here mentioned in John 14, without opening a can
of worms, I would like to continue refs to the Greek NT UNLESS there is a
direct quote from the hebrew in the particular passage
A
Yirmeyahu Yisrael Thank you, but I do need one on this laptop for
when I do not have wifi internet connections. I am in my truck out here on the
road
A
Yirmeyahu Yisrael But maybe you can see and understand, that I use
from the Hebrew based sourses in the scriptures I post.
A
Yirmeyahu Yisrael i am aslo aware of the Greek based, and have them
on this laptop as well. Both the Greek based English and the Greek.
Fred- yes Yisrael, I have studied in College and Master level
courses both the Greek and the Hebrew languages, with a smattering of the
Aramaic, so I knew where you were going on your comment
Fred- anyway back to the original verses Don mentioned
Fred- Paul writes that the "day of the Lord" will not
happen until: . ."the following away come first" and . ."the man
of sin be revealed" . .some have interpreted the "following
away" as meaning the "snatching away" or the rapture
A
Yirmeyahu Yisrael Freh, I strongly disagree with the view of
"falling away" the meaning of the rapture. I sujest you restudy it again
John- As for "apostasia",
there is only ONE other place in the NT where that word is used, and it's Acts
21:21:
Acts 21:21- "And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake ("apostasia") Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs."
So it clearly refers to rebellion in terms of belief. Furthermore, in the 4 times in which "apostasia" is used in the Septuagint, it refers to rebellion every time:
Joshua 22:22- "The Lord God of gods, the Lord God of gods, he knoweth, and Israel he shall know; if it in transgression against the Lord by apostasy ("apostasia")..."
2 Chron 29:19- "Moreover all the vessels, which king Ahaz in his reign did cast away in his apostasy ("apostasia") have we prepared and sanctified, and, behold, they are before the altar of the Lord."
2 Chron 33:19- "His prayer also, and how God was intreated of him, and all his sin, and his apostasy ("apostasia"), and the places wherein he built high places, and set up groves and graven images, before he was humbled: behold, they are written among the sayings of the seers."
Jer 2:19- "Thine own wickedness shall correct thee, and thy backslidings ("apostasia") shall reprove thee: know therefore and see that it is an evil thing and bitter, that thou hast forsaken the Lord thy God, and that my fear is not in thee, saith the Lord God of hosts."
...and Apocrypha:
1 Macc 2:15- "And they that were sent from king Antiochus came thither, to compel them that were fled into the city of Modin, to sacrifice, and to burn incense, and to depart ("apostasia") from the law of God."
So there is no merit to the popular pretrib teaching that "apostasia" refers to a geographical departure (i.e. rapture). Were that the case, he could have easily used the same "harpazo" which he used in 1 Thess 4:17.
Acts 21:21- "And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake ("apostasia") Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs."
So it clearly refers to rebellion in terms of belief. Furthermore, in the 4 times in which "apostasia" is used in the Septuagint, it refers to rebellion every time:
Joshua 22:22- "The Lord God of gods, the Lord God of gods, he knoweth, and Israel he shall know; if it in transgression against the Lord by apostasy ("apostasia")..."
2 Chron 29:19- "Moreover all the vessels, which king Ahaz in his reign did cast away in his apostasy ("apostasia") have we prepared and sanctified, and, behold, they are before the altar of the Lord."
2 Chron 33:19- "His prayer also, and how God was intreated of him, and all his sin, and his apostasy ("apostasia"), and the places wherein he built high places, and set up groves and graven images, before he was humbled: behold, they are written among the sayings of the seers."
Jer 2:19- "Thine own wickedness shall correct thee, and thy backslidings ("apostasia") shall reprove thee: know therefore and see that it is an evil thing and bitter, that thou hast forsaken the Lord thy God, and that my fear is not in thee, saith the Lord God of hosts."
...and Apocrypha:
1 Macc 2:15- "And they that were sent from king Antiochus came thither, to compel them that were fled into the city of Modin, to sacrifice, and to burn incense, and to depart ("apostasia") from the law of God."
So there is no merit to the popular pretrib teaching that "apostasia" refers to a geographical departure (i.e. rapture). Were that the case, he could have easily used the same "harpazo" which he used in 1 Thess 4:17.
Doug Fred, I have never, in ANY, version of Scripture, seen the
word "FOLLOWING" in that passage.
Doug New International Version
Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
New Living Translation
Don't be fooled by what they say. For that day will not come until there is a great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness is revealed--the one who brings destruction.
English Standard Version
Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
New American Standard Bible
Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
King James Bible
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Holman Christian Standard Bible
Don't let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.
International Standard Version
Do not let anyone deceive you in any way, for it will not come unless the rebellion takes place first and the man of sin, who is destined for destruction, is revealed.
NET Bible
Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not arrive until the rebellion comes and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Let no man deceive you by any means, to the effect that surely no revolt will first come and The Man of Sin, The Son of Destruction, be revealed,
GOD'S WORD® Translation
Don't let anyone deceive you about this in any way. [That day cannot come unless] a revolt takes place first, and the man of sin, the man of destruction, is revealed.
Jubilee Bible 2000
Let no one deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come except there come a falling away first and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,
King James 2000 Bible
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come the falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
American King James Version
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
American Standard Version
let no man beguile you in any wise: for it will not be, except the falling away come first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,
Douay-Rheims Bible
Let no man deceive you by any means, for unless there come a revolt first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,
Darby Bible Translation
Let not any one deceive you in any manner, because it will not be unless the apostasy have first come, and the man of sin have been revealed, the son of perdition;
English Revised Version
let no man beguile you in any wise: for it will not be, except the falling away come first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,
Webster's Bible Translation
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Weymouth New Testament
Let no one in any way deceive you, for that day cannot come without the coming of the apostasy first, and the appearing of the man of sin, the son of perdition, who sets himself against,
Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
New Living Translation
Don't be fooled by what they say. For that day will not come until there is a great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness is revealed--the one who brings destruction.
English Standard Version
Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
New American Standard Bible
Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
King James Bible
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Holman Christian Standard Bible
Don't let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.
International Standard Version
Do not let anyone deceive you in any way, for it will not come unless the rebellion takes place first and the man of sin, who is destined for destruction, is revealed.
NET Bible
Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not arrive until the rebellion comes and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Let no man deceive you by any means, to the effect that surely no revolt will first come and The Man of Sin, The Son of Destruction, be revealed,
GOD'S WORD® Translation
Don't let anyone deceive you about this in any way. [That day cannot come unless] a revolt takes place first, and the man of sin, the man of destruction, is revealed.
Jubilee Bible 2000
Let no one deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come except there come a falling away first and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,
King James 2000 Bible
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come the falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
American King James Version
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
American Standard Version
let no man beguile you in any wise: for it will not be, except the falling away come first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,
Douay-Rheims Bible
Let no man deceive you by any means, for unless there come a revolt first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,
Darby Bible Translation
Let not any one deceive you in any manner, because it will not be unless the apostasy have first come, and the man of sin have been revealed, the son of perdition;
English Revised Version
let no man beguile you in any wise: for it will not be, except the falling away come first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,
Webster's Bible Translation
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Weymouth New Testament
Let no one in any way deceive you, for that day cannot come without the coming of the apostasy first, and the appearing of the man of sin, the son of perdition, who sets himself against,
John- Doug , isn't it something how popular
teachers have dared suggest that it could mean "rapture"?
Doug "In Bedrock....TWIST, TWIST"
Doug A little Flintstone humor
Doug As in "TWIST" Scripture.
Doug I think the Lord covered this subject. One of the things
that would happen BEFORE His return was, according to HIM, a falling away.
Matthew 24: "“Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to
death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many
will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many
false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase
of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but the one who stands firm
to the end will be saved.
John- Amen, Doug.
John- Matt. 24:9-13 doesn't mean
"harpazo"?
John- Doug, I don't think you're
"rightly dividing".
Doug It's "wrightly deviding", John.
John- Lol. I stand corrected.
Doug Matthew 24 was a PRIVATE briefing to the disciples only.
There was no "National Israel" in that group.Believers only. In
addition, when the Lord ascended on the Mount of Olives after His resurrection,
It was the disciples ONLY in that group. The angels told the disciples "
“Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This
same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same
way you have seen him go into heaven.” Acts 1:11. Same group (believers), only
ONE return of the Lord described in both cases.
John- Well said.
Doug The Lord left from the Mount of Olives, he will return to
the Mount of Olives. Neither the angels nor the Lord Himself described two
returns or a secret "following away", but ONE gathering.
Jeanette If the falling away was referring to the rapture then
that scripture would have to read "now brethren concerning the coming of
our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering to him, (the rapture) let NO one
deceive you by any means. for that day(the day of his coming and our gathering
to him-the rapture) won't happen unless the Rapture comes first and the man of
sin is revealed. That would be saying that the rapture will not come unless the
Rapture comes first. That makes no sense at all. This scripture is clearly
saying that our gathering to him( the rapture) will not come unless the falling
away comes first. The falling away has to happen before the rapture! So the
falling away is not the rapture.
Don How can anyone get the "rapture from "falling
away" in 2 Thess 2:3 ???
Falling away in the Greek text is: apostasia
NT:646 apostasia (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah); feminine of the same as NT:647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ["apostasy"]:
KJV - falling away, forsake.
Apostasia means defection from the truth or "apostasy" in English. It certainly does NOT mean "rapture".
Apostasy means to fall away from one's faith or religion. When the false Christ, antichrist, claims to be God and deceives the whole world into believing him, it is this that causes the apostasy or "falling away".
It's funny the lengths that pre trib rapture teachers will go to when they twist scripture to fit their rapture doctrine.
Falling away in the Greek text is: apostasia
NT:646 apostasia (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah); feminine of the same as NT:647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ["apostasy"]:
KJV - falling away, forsake.
Apostasia means defection from the truth or "apostasy" in English. It certainly does NOT mean "rapture".
Apostasy means to fall away from one's faith or religion. When the false Christ, antichrist, claims to be God and deceives the whole world into believing him, it is this that causes the apostasy or "falling away".
It's funny the lengths that pre trib rapture teachers will go to when they twist scripture to fit their rapture doctrine.
Fred- my apologies doug, not following but falling away was meant,
just a typo
Fred- ok, here is my official stance on the "falling
away" theory: my official view is that this passage seems to indicate a
general defection from the truth but the phrase could be argued as a
"snatching away" , the passage is UNCLEAR regarding its meaning. Here
are some things to consider in making up your own mind, and by the way Don, I
never wrote that I get rapture from falling away, I only said it could be
argued so.
Fred- on apostasia: 1. this word is only used two times in the NT,
in Acts 21:21 and II Thess 2:3, so how anyone could argue strictly from the New
Testament that it has only one meaning cannot be done
Fred- Here is Thomas Ice's argument on apostasia as rapture related:
PART
1................................................................................Let
no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes
first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
- 2 Thessalonians 2:3
I believe that there is a strong possibility that 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is speaking of the rapture. What do I mean? Some pretribulationists, like myself, think that the Greek noun apostasia, usually translated " apostasy," is a reference to the rapture and should be translated " departure." Thus, this passage would be saying that the day of the Lord will not come until the rapture comes before it. If apostasia is a reference to a physical departure, then 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is strong evidence for pretribulationism.
- 2 Thessalonians 2:3
I believe that there is a strong possibility that 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is speaking of the rapture. What do I mean? Some pretribulationists, like myself, think that the Greek noun apostasia, usually translated " apostasy," is a reference to the rapture and should be translated " departure." Thus, this passage would be saying that the day of the Lord will not come until the rapture comes before it. If apostasia is a reference to a physical departure, then 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is strong evidence for pretribulationism.
Fred- Here is Thomas Ice's argument on apostasia as rapture
related: PART
2......................................................................................The
Meaning of Apostasia
The Greek noun apostasia is only used twice in the New Testament. In addition to 2 Thessalonians 2:3, it occurs in Acts 21:21 where, speaking of Paul, it is said, " that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake (apostasia)Moses." The word is a Greek compound of apo " from" and istemi " stand." Thus, it has the core meaning of " away from" or " departure." The Liddell and Scott Greek Lexicon defines apostasia first as " defection, revolt;" then secondly as " departure, disappearance." [1] Gordon Lewis explains how the verb from which the noun apostasia is derived supports the basic meaning of departure in the following:
The verb may mean to remove spatially. There is little reason then to deny that the noun can mean such a spatial removal or departure. Since the noun is used only one other time in the New Testament of apostasy from Moses (Acts 21:21), we can hardly conclude that its Biblical meaning is necessarily determined. The verb is used fifteen times in the New Testament. Of these fifteen, only three have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8;13; 1 Tim. 4:1; Heb 3:12). The word is used for departing from iniquity (2 Tim. 2:19), from ungodly men(1 Tim. 6:5), from the temple (Luke 2:27), from the body (2 Cor. 12:8), and from persons (Acts 12:10; Luke 4:13).[2]
The Greek noun apostasia is only used twice in the New Testament. In addition to 2 Thessalonians 2:3, it occurs in Acts 21:21 where, speaking of Paul, it is said, " that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake (apostasia)Moses." The word is a Greek compound of apo " from" and istemi " stand." Thus, it has the core meaning of " away from" or " departure." The Liddell and Scott Greek Lexicon defines apostasia first as " defection, revolt;" then secondly as " departure, disappearance." [1] Gordon Lewis explains how the verb from which the noun apostasia is derived supports the basic meaning of departure in the following:
The verb may mean to remove spatially. There is little reason then to deny that the noun can mean such a spatial removal or departure. Since the noun is used only one other time in the New Testament of apostasy from Moses (Acts 21:21), we can hardly conclude that its Biblical meaning is necessarily determined. The verb is used fifteen times in the New Testament. Of these fifteen, only three have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8;13; 1 Tim. 4:1; Heb 3:12). The word is used for departing from iniquity (2 Tim. 2:19), from ungodly men(1 Tim. 6:5), from the temple (Luke 2:27), from the body (2 Cor. 12:8), and from persons (Acts 12:10; Luke 4:13).[2]
Fred- (Thomas Ice on Apostasia)PART
III................................................." It is with full
assurance of proper exegetical study and with complete confidence in the
original languages," concludes Daniel Davey, " that the word meaning
of apostasia is defined as departure." [3] Paul Lee Tan adds the
following:
What precisely does Paul mean when he says that " the falling away" (2:3) must come before the tribulation? The definite article " the" denotes that this will be a definite event, an event distinct from the appearance of the Man of Sin. The Greek word for " falling away" , taken by itself, does not mean religious apostasy or defection. Neither does the word mean " to fall," as the Greeks have another word for that. [pipto, I fall; TDI] The best translation of the word is " to depart." The apostle Paul refers here to a definite event which he calls " the departure," and which will occur just before the start of the tribulation. This is the rapture of the church.[4]
So the word has the core meaning of departure and it depends upon the context to determine whether it is used to mean physical departure or an abstract departure such as departure from the faith.
What precisely does Paul mean when he says that " the falling away" (2:3) must come before the tribulation? The definite article " the" denotes that this will be a definite event, an event distinct from the appearance of the Man of Sin. The Greek word for " falling away" , taken by itself, does not mean religious apostasy or defection. Neither does the word mean " to fall," as the Greeks have another word for that. [pipto, I fall; TDI] The best translation of the word is " to depart." The apostle Paul refers here to a definite event which he calls " the departure," and which will occur just before the start of the tribulation. This is the rapture of the church.[4]
So the word has the core meaning of departure and it depends upon the context to determine whether it is used to mean physical departure or an abstract departure such as departure from the faith.
Fred- Thomas Ice on Apostasia PART
4......................................................Translation History
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608).[5] This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of a.d. 400 renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' " [6] Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of " departure" ?
Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No good reason was ever given.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608).[5] This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of a.d. 400 renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' " [6] Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of " departure" ?
Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No good reason was ever given.
Fred- Thomas Ice on Apostsia PART
5.............................................................The Use of the
Article
It is important to note that Paul uses a definite article with the noun apostasia. What does this mean? Davey notes the following:
Since the Greek language does not need an article to make the noun definite, it becomes clear that with the usage of the article reference is being made to something in particular. In II Thessalonians 2:3 the word apostasia is prefaced by the definite article which means that Paul is pointing to a particular type of departure clearly known to the Thessalonian church.[7]
Dr. Lewis provides a likely answer when he notes that the definite article serves to make a word distinct and draw attention to it. In this instance he believes that its purpose is " to denote a previous reference." " The departure Paul previously referred to was ' our being gathered to him' (v. 1) and our being ' caught up' with the Lord and the raptured dead in the clouds (1 Thess. 4:17)," notes Dr. Lewis.[8] The " departure" was something that Paul and his readers clearly had a mutual understanding about. Paul says in verse 5, " Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?"
The use of the definite article would also support the notion that Paul spoke of a clear, discernable event. A physical departure, like the rapture would fit just such a notion. However, the New Testament teaches that apostasy had already arrived in the first century (cf. Acts 20:27- 32; 1 Tim. 4:1- 5; 2 Tim. 3:1- 9; 2 Pet. 2:1- 3; Jude 3- 4, 17- 21) and thus, such a process would not denote a clear event as demanded by the language of this passage. Understanding departure as the rapture would satisfy the nuance of this text. E. Schuyler English explains as follows:
Again, how would the Thessalonians, or Christians in any century since, be qualified to recognize the apostasy when it should come, assuming, simply for the sake of this inquiry, that the Church might be on earth when it does come? There has been apostasy from God, rebellion against Him, since time began.[9]
Whatever Paul is referring to in his reference to " the departure," was something that both the Thessalonian believers and he had discussed in-depth previously. When we examine Paul' s first letter to the Thessalonians, he never mentions the doctrine of apostasy, however, virtually every chapter in that epistle speaks of the rapture (cf. 1:9- 10; 2:19; probably 3:13; 4:13- 17; 5:1- 11). In these passages, Paul has used a variety of Greek terms to describe the rapture. It should not be surprising that he uses another term to reference the rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. Dr. House tells us:
Remember, the Thessalonians had been led astray by the false teaching (2:2- 3) that the Day of the Lord had already come. This was confusing because Paul offered great hope, in the first letter, of a departure to be with Christ and a rescue from god' s wrath. Now a letter purporting to be from Paul seems to say that they would first have to go through the Day of the Lord. Paul then clarified his prior teaching by emphasizing that they had no need to worry. They could again be comforted because the departure he had discussed in his first letter, and in his teaching while with them, was still the truth. The departure of Christians to be with Christ, and the subsequent revelation of the lawless one, Paul argues, is proof that the Day of the Lord had not begun as they had thought. This understanding of apostasia makes much more sense than the view that they are to be comforted (v. 2) because a defection from the faith must precede the Day of the Lord. The entire second chapter (as well as 1 Thessalonians 4:18; 5:11) serves to comfort (see vv. 2, 3, 17), supplied by a reassurance of Christ' s coming as taught in his first letter.[10]
It is important to note that Paul uses a definite article with the noun apostasia. What does this mean? Davey notes the following:
Since the Greek language does not need an article to make the noun definite, it becomes clear that with the usage of the article reference is being made to something in particular. In II Thessalonians 2:3 the word apostasia is prefaced by the definite article which means that Paul is pointing to a particular type of departure clearly known to the Thessalonian church.[7]
Dr. Lewis provides a likely answer when he notes that the definite article serves to make a word distinct and draw attention to it. In this instance he believes that its purpose is " to denote a previous reference." " The departure Paul previously referred to was ' our being gathered to him' (v. 1) and our being ' caught up' with the Lord and the raptured dead in the clouds (1 Thess. 4:17)," notes Dr. Lewis.[8] The " departure" was something that Paul and his readers clearly had a mutual understanding about. Paul says in verse 5, " Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?"
The use of the definite article would also support the notion that Paul spoke of a clear, discernable event. A physical departure, like the rapture would fit just such a notion. However, the New Testament teaches that apostasy had already arrived in the first century (cf. Acts 20:27- 32; 1 Tim. 4:1- 5; 2 Tim. 3:1- 9; 2 Pet. 2:1- 3; Jude 3- 4, 17- 21) and thus, such a process would not denote a clear event as demanded by the language of this passage. Understanding departure as the rapture would satisfy the nuance of this text. E. Schuyler English explains as follows:
Again, how would the Thessalonians, or Christians in any century since, be qualified to recognize the apostasy when it should come, assuming, simply for the sake of this inquiry, that the Church might be on earth when it does come? There has been apostasy from God, rebellion against Him, since time began.[9]
Whatever Paul is referring to in his reference to " the departure," was something that both the Thessalonian believers and he had discussed in-depth previously. When we examine Paul' s first letter to the Thessalonians, he never mentions the doctrine of apostasy, however, virtually every chapter in that epistle speaks of the rapture (cf. 1:9- 10; 2:19; probably 3:13; 4:13- 17; 5:1- 11). In these passages, Paul has used a variety of Greek terms to describe the rapture. It should not be surprising that he uses another term to reference the rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. Dr. House tells us:
Remember, the Thessalonians had been led astray by the false teaching (2:2- 3) that the Day of the Lord had already come. This was confusing because Paul offered great hope, in the first letter, of a departure to be with Christ and a rescue from god' s wrath. Now a letter purporting to be from Paul seems to say that they would first have to go through the Day of the Lord. Paul then clarified his prior teaching by emphasizing that they had no need to worry. They could again be comforted because the departure he had discussed in his first letter, and in his teaching while with them, was still the truth. The departure of Christians to be with Christ, and the subsequent revelation of the lawless one, Paul argues, is proof that the Day of the Lord had not begun as they had thought. This understanding of apostasia makes much more sense than the view that they are to be comforted (v. 2) because a defection from the faith must precede the Day of the Lord. The entire second chapter (as well as 1 Thessalonians 4:18; 5:11) serves to comfort (see vv. 2, 3, 17), supplied by a reassurance of Christ' s coming as taught in his first letter.[10]
Fred- Here is an analysis of the use of Apostasia outside the NT
before NT times: 4. The major Greek lexicons allow for the word “departure” as
a possible definition of the Greek word “apostasia.” (1.)
Liddell and Scott. This classical Greek lexicon which reveals normal usage of words prior to the age of the writing of the
New Testament gives a meaning of “departure or disappearance” as a possible meaning of the word “apostasia.” (2.) Arndt
and Gingrich. This Greek Lexicon gives entries of usage during the New testament. They reveal the thought of “giving up a
claim” for the word “apostasion” which in essence is a “departure.” They also reveal that many related words point to the
concept of a “departure.” (3.) Moulton and Milligan. They provide several examples in “koine” Greek during the time of
the New Testament of the verb “aphistemi” (a cognate of apostasia) as carrying the sense of spatial departure. (4.) Lampe.
This Patristic Greek Lexicon which reveals the normal usage of words to the age after the writing of the New Testament gives
a possible meaning of “departure” for the word “apostasia.” (5.) Kittel. The word apostasia and its cognates can carry the
spatial sense, to remove either spatially or from the context of a state or relationship.
5. Based on rules of grammar there is one English word that best “literally” translates any Greek word. The word “departure”
best translates the Greek word “apostasia.” Based on rules of grammar the “context” reveals the meaning and application of
that Greek word. The context gives any word a “negative” or “positive” connotation.
6. To translate the Greek word “apostasia” into the English word “apostasy” is a transliteration, and not a true “literal”
translation. To translate the Greek word “apostasia” into the English words “falling away” is an “interpolation” of the
Greek (ie “a translation that reflects an interpretation”). It makes the word “negative” prior to understanding its context.
7. The Greek word “apostasion” means “departure” and not a “falling away from the faith” as seen from Matthew and Mark in
their use of this word (“apostasion”) to describe a “bill of divorce,” (Matt. 5:31; Mk. 10:4). The word “apostasion” literally
means a “departure” and the context makes it a “legal departure from the contract of a marriage.” To give “apostasion” the
meaning of “a falling away from the faith” would make all “divorces” spiritually unacceptable and sin, because the “divorce”
would be the same as “falling away” from the Christian faith.
Liddell and Scott. This classical Greek lexicon which reveals normal usage of words prior to the age of the writing of the
New Testament gives a meaning of “departure or disappearance” as a possible meaning of the word “apostasia.” (2.) Arndt
and Gingrich. This Greek Lexicon gives entries of usage during the New testament. They reveal the thought of “giving up a
claim” for the word “apostasion” which in essence is a “departure.” They also reveal that many related words point to the
concept of a “departure.” (3.) Moulton and Milligan. They provide several examples in “koine” Greek during the time of
the New Testament of the verb “aphistemi” (a cognate of apostasia) as carrying the sense of spatial departure. (4.) Lampe.
This Patristic Greek Lexicon which reveals the normal usage of words to the age after the writing of the New Testament gives
a possible meaning of “departure” for the word “apostasia.” (5.) Kittel. The word apostasia and its cognates can carry the
spatial sense, to remove either spatially or from the context of a state or relationship.
5. Based on rules of grammar there is one English word that best “literally” translates any Greek word. The word “departure”
best translates the Greek word “apostasia.” Based on rules of grammar the “context” reveals the meaning and application of
that Greek word. The context gives any word a “negative” or “positive” connotation.
6. To translate the Greek word “apostasia” into the English word “apostasy” is a transliteration, and not a true “literal”
translation. To translate the Greek word “apostasia” into the English words “falling away” is an “interpolation” of the
Greek (ie “a translation that reflects an interpretation”). It makes the word “negative” prior to understanding its context.
7. The Greek word “apostasion” means “departure” and not a “falling away from the faith” as seen from Matthew and Mark in
their use of this word (“apostasion”) to describe a “bill of divorce,” (Matt. 5:31; Mk. 10:4). The word “apostasion” literally
means a “departure” and the context makes it a “legal departure from the contract of a marriage.” To give “apostasion” the
meaning of “a falling away from the faith” would make all “divorces” spiritually unacceptable and sin, because the “divorce”
would be the same as “falling away” from the Christian faith.
Fred- here are some OT suggestions on the word Apostasia:
metatithemi, used for Enoch's rapture, and apostasia both mean "to fall
away"
metatithemi, used for Enoch's rapture, and apostasia both mean "to depart"
metatithemi, used for Enoch's rapture, and apostasia both signify "change" as the rapture is a change.
metathesis, used for Enoch's rapture, and apostasia both (in the word it's derrived from, aphistemi) can both mean "to remove".
laqach, used for Enoch's rapture, and harpazo (rapture in 1 Thess 4:17), can both mean "to take"
laqach, used for Enoch's rapture, and harpazo, can both mean "to seize"
laqach, used for Enoch's rapture, and harpazo, can both mean "to snatch away"
laqach, used for Enoch's rapture, also carries the meaning "to marry, take a wife" which is a strong rapture parallel
metatithemi, used for Enoch's rapture, and apostasia both mean "to depart"
metatithemi, used for Enoch's rapture, and apostasia both signify "change" as the rapture is a change.
metathesis, used for Enoch's rapture, and apostasia both (in the word it's derrived from, aphistemi) can both mean "to remove".
laqach, used for Enoch's rapture, and harpazo (rapture in 1 Thess 4:17), can both mean "to take"
laqach, used for Enoch's rapture, and harpazo, can both mean "to seize"
laqach, used for Enoch's rapture, and harpazo, can both mean "to snatch away"
laqach, used for Enoch's rapture, also carries the meaning "to marry, take a wife" which is a strong rapture parallel
Fred- on the meaning of apostasia regarding my posts above, I would
most certainly take any opposing arguments
Jeanette Fred, even if it DOES mean rapture, do you still
not see how that would not make any sense in that scripture? He says "That
day will not come unless there come a falling away" He is saying that the
coming of Jesus and the rapture won't happen ..
John- Fred, let me first say that the
purpose of this group is not to plaster it with other people's opinions. It is
for us to break down Scripture. If you'd like to invite Thomas Ice, he's more
than welcome to come and defend his position.
That being said, he used poor scholarship. Why? Because it's obviously based on desperation. Instead of seeing how the actual word "apostasia" is used in Scripture, he attempts to define the Greek word roots ("aphistemi"). Perhaps he doesn't realize that the actual word "apostasia" is found in the Septuagint (OT Greek translation readily available to the 1st century apostles, in case anyone doesn't know what the Septuagint is), and it never means a geographical departure. I posted what I've found earlier, but I'll post it again for you:
As for "apostasia", there is only ONE other place in the NT where that word is used, and it's Acts 21:21:
Acts 21:21- "And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake ("apostasia") Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs."
So it clearly refers to rebellion in terms of belief. Furthermore, in the 4 times in which "apostasia" is used in the Septuagint, it refers to rebellion every time:
Joshua 22:22- "The Lord God of gods, the Lord God of gods, he knoweth, and Israel he shall know; if it in transgression against the Lord by apostasy ("apostasia")..."
2 Chron 29:19- "Moreover all the vessels, which king Ahaz in his reign did cast away in his apostasy ("apostasia") have we prepared and sanctified, and, behold, they are before the altar of the Lord."
2 Chron 33:19- "His prayer also, and how God was intreated of him, and all his sin, and his apostasy ("apostasia"), and the places wherein he built high places, and set up groves and graven images, before he was humbled: behold, they are written among the sayings of the seers."
Jer 2:19- "Thine own wickedness shall correct thee, and thy backslidings ("apostasia") shall reprove thee: know therefore and see that it is an evil thing and bitter, that thou hast forsaken the Lord thy God, and that my fear is not in thee, saith the Lord God of hosts."
...and Apocrypha:
1 Macc 2:15- "And they that were sent from king Antiochus came thither, to compel them that were fled into the city of Modin, to sacrifice, and to burn incense, and to depart ("apostasia") from the law of God."
So there is no merit to the popular pretrib teaching that "apostasia" refers to a geographical departure (i.e. rapture). Were that the case, he could have easily used the same "harpazo" which he used in 1 Thess 4:17.
So no, there is NO possibility that "apostasia" means a geographical departure. Paul didn't use "aphistemi". He used "apostasia". Anyone worth their salt acknowledges that.
That being said, he used poor scholarship. Why? Because it's obviously based on desperation. Instead of seeing how the actual word "apostasia" is used in Scripture, he attempts to define the Greek word roots ("aphistemi"). Perhaps he doesn't realize that the actual word "apostasia" is found in the Septuagint (OT Greek translation readily available to the 1st century apostles, in case anyone doesn't know what the Septuagint is), and it never means a geographical departure. I posted what I've found earlier, but I'll post it again for you:
As for "apostasia", there is only ONE other place in the NT where that word is used, and it's Acts 21:21:
Acts 21:21- "And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake ("apostasia") Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs."
So it clearly refers to rebellion in terms of belief. Furthermore, in the 4 times in which "apostasia" is used in the Septuagint, it refers to rebellion every time:
Joshua 22:22- "The Lord God of gods, the Lord God of gods, he knoweth, and Israel he shall know; if it in transgression against the Lord by apostasy ("apostasia")..."
2 Chron 29:19- "Moreover all the vessels, which king Ahaz in his reign did cast away in his apostasy ("apostasia") have we prepared and sanctified, and, behold, they are before the altar of the Lord."
2 Chron 33:19- "His prayer also, and how God was intreated of him, and all his sin, and his apostasy ("apostasia"), and the places wherein he built high places, and set up groves and graven images, before he was humbled: behold, they are written among the sayings of the seers."
Jer 2:19- "Thine own wickedness shall correct thee, and thy backslidings ("apostasia") shall reprove thee: know therefore and see that it is an evil thing and bitter, that thou hast forsaken the Lord thy God, and that my fear is not in thee, saith the Lord God of hosts."
...and Apocrypha:
1 Macc 2:15- "And they that were sent from king Antiochus came thither, to compel them that were fled into the city of Modin, to sacrifice, and to burn incense, and to depart ("apostasia") from the law of God."
So there is no merit to the popular pretrib teaching that "apostasia" refers to a geographical departure (i.e. rapture). Were that the case, he could have easily used the same "harpazo" which he used in 1 Thess 4:17.
So no, there is NO possibility that "apostasia" means a geographical departure. Paul didn't use "aphistemi". He used "apostasia". Anyone worth their salt acknowledges that.
Don Fred, It never ceases to amaze me how
rapture doctrine teachers will twist words of scripture to say something which
it clearly does not say. The lengths they'll got to to justify false doctrine
is just incredible.
Realtor Don, pre-tribers will not admit that they are Margaret
Macdonald disciples!
Angie- Enoch's "rapture"??
Fred- John, thanks for the heads up on posting, although I did
notice that your posts are quite longwinded
John- Yes, Fred, but they're mine.
John- More importantly, did you get the
point about "apostasia", and Ice's slight-of-hand?
Angie- Yes, the problem isn't with long-winded posts. The
problem is copying and pasting long-winded posts that are not your thoughts,
but someone else's.
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