· An acquaintance of mine from another discussion group wrote this:
Some thoughts by Donna, on
"Annihilation," the "Second Death."
Western thought has adopted the Greek idea that once someone is alive, they can never cease to exist. That when the body dies, the real "you" continues on somewhere. I no longer think this is what the Bible teaches.
Let me explain it this way. Light is a thing. It is a wave and it is energy. Dark is not a thing. It is the absence of light. Dark cannot overcome light because it doesn't have substance or energy.
Why bring that up, you ask? Because life is a thing. God breathed into Adam's cold body and he became a living being. When God withdraws that breath, he went back to his basic elements and the Breath went back to God.
Death is not a thing. It is the absence of a thing. We can live forever. We can not die forever. In the Hebrew way of thinking "eternal death" could only mean to die and never become alive again. Eternal life means God continues to give us life for eternity. I think the problem lies in the fact that we look at Scripture through a Greek lens instead of a Hebrew lens.
First, let me say that I do value what the ECFs have to say. It is forensic evidence about what was taught by the apostles and when certain teachings first entered our doctrines. Nevertheless, I think some of these writings are interpreted through the lens of "what we've always been taught" making them say something quite different from what was intended. Using the link Ken posted, "Cold Case Christianity", Irenaeus, Barnabas and Clement of Rome spoke of things like "unquenchable fire." Did they mean the fire never goes out as many see it today or did they mean a fire that can't be put out? It burns until all the fuel is gone. I would say the latter. It was Plato who taught that the soul can never die. Some of the ECFs were strongly influenced by their Greek education as mentioned in the above article. (Athanagoaras, Clement of Alexandria, Felix Menucius, etc) All this to say, I am not convinced that the Apostles taught immortality of the soul. That indeed would have been a very foreign concept to them. In fact, IMO they would have called it Gnostic.
Here's a quote from the Jewish Encyclopedia on what the Pharisees believed and taught at the time of Jesus and the Apostles. "The Pharisaic belief in resurrection had not even a name for the immortality of the soul. For them, man was made for two worlds, the world that now is, and the world to come, where life does not end in death." Of course we know what the Sadducees taught. When you're dead you're dead. The end. The Essenes were the ones who combined Plato's views into their belief system and came up with a Gnostic type view of the afterlife.
Jude 1:7 gives us a hint as to what "eternal fire" means. It states that Sodom and Gomorrah are examples of it. They burned so completely that there isn't a trace of their civilization left. But no one would claim that it is still burning.
2 Tim 1:10 tells us that Jesus brought immortality to light through the gospel. It is not something we already had. 1 Cor. 15:53 tells us that we will put on immortality at the resurrection.
Numbers 16:33 says this, "So they and all those with them went alive down into the pit..." The word translated, "pit" is sheol. If sheol means "the grave" which I believe it does, then this makes good sense. If it means some shadowy abode of the dead, then it gets kind of weird.
Ezekiel 32:27 is another verse that only makes sense if sheol is the grave, not a place for ghosts. "...who have gone down to hell (sheol) with their weapons of war. They have laid their swords under their heads, but their iniquities will be on their bones..."
So, if sheol and hades mean grave, then the Bible doesn't teach what we always assumed it meant. The same goes for the soul. Either we are a soul or we have a soul. One must work that out first, before we can rightly understand what the Bible really means. If you do a word search for nephesh you will be amazed at all the different ways translators render it to try and make it fit into their view of the dead. ~Donna
Western thought has adopted the Greek idea that once someone is alive, they can never cease to exist. That when the body dies, the real "you" continues on somewhere. I no longer think this is what the Bible teaches.
Let me explain it this way. Light is a thing. It is a wave and it is energy. Dark is not a thing. It is the absence of light. Dark cannot overcome light because it doesn't have substance or energy.
Why bring that up, you ask? Because life is a thing. God breathed into Adam's cold body and he became a living being. When God withdraws that breath, he went back to his basic elements and the Breath went back to God.
Death is not a thing. It is the absence of a thing. We can live forever. We can not die forever. In the Hebrew way of thinking "eternal death" could only mean to die and never become alive again. Eternal life means God continues to give us life for eternity. I think the problem lies in the fact that we look at Scripture through a Greek lens instead of a Hebrew lens.
First, let me say that I do value what the ECFs have to say. It is forensic evidence about what was taught by the apostles and when certain teachings first entered our doctrines. Nevertheless, I think some of these writings are interpreted through the lens of "what we've always been taught" making them say something quite different from what was intended. Using the link Ken posted, "Cold Case Christianity", Irenaeus, Barnabas and Clement of Rome spoke of things like "unquenchable fire." Did they mean the fire never goes out as many see it today or did they mean a fire that can't be put out? It burns until all the fuel is gone. I would say the latter. It was Plato who taught that the soul can never die. Some of the ECFs were strongly influenced by their Greek education as mentioned in the above article. (Athanagoaras, Clement of Alexandria, Felix Menucius, etc) All this to say, I am not convinced that the Apostles taught immortality of the soul. That indeed would have been a very foreign concept to them. In fact, IMO they would have called it Gnostic.
Here's a quote from the Jewish Encyclopedia on what the Pharisees believed and taught at the time of Jesus and the Apostles. "The Pharisaic belief in resurrection had not even a name for the immortality of the soul. For them, man was made for two worlds, the world that now is, and the world to come, where life does not end in death." Of course we know what the Sadducees taught. When you're dead you're dead. The end. The Essenes were the ones who combined Plato's views into their belief system and came up with a Gnostic type view of the afterlife.
Jude 1:7 gives us a hint as to what "eternal fire" means. It states that Sodom and Gomorrah are examples of it. They burned so completely that there isn't a trace of their civilization left. But no one would claim that it is still burning.
2 Tim 1:10 tells us that Jesus brought immortality to light through the gospel. It is not something we already had. 1 Cor. 15:53 tells us that we will put on immortality at the resurrection.
Numbers 16:33 says this, "So they and all those with them went alive down into the pit..." The word translated, "pit" is sheol. If sheol means "the grave" which I believe it does, then this makes good sense. If it means some shadowy abode of the dead, then it gets kind of weird.
Ezekiel 32:27 is another verse that only makes sense if sheol is the grave, not a place for ghosts. "...who have gone down to hell (sheol) with their weapons of war. They have laid their swords under their heads, but their iniquities will be on their bones..."
So, if sheol and hades mean grave, then the Bible doesn't teach what we always assumed it meant. The same goes for the soul. Either we are a soul or we have a soul. One must work that out first, before we can rightly understand what the Bible really means. If you do a word search for nephesh you will be amazed at all the different ways translators render it to try and make it fit into their view of the dead. ~Donna
~by Angie~
The reason I try to cover so many different angles is because I believe they all tie in directly with each other. For example, we must explain where Enoch and Elijah are/aren't to establish why people do/don't go to heaven; then, once that's established, we can understand who the two witnesses are or aren't. See what I mean? It all ties in, fitting together like the pieces of a completed puzzle. If we are missing pieces, then it leaves questions and doubts about one or the other. Everything has to be proven concretely in Scripture. Okay, the rest of what I'm going to post are the things I have written. There is a lot here, so you're going to see the same verses here and there in the different writings.
~by Angie~
Micah 4:5 prophesied that the spirit of Elijah would come again to herald the coming King on the Day of the Lord. So, it's a given that this is regarding the 2nd coming. Jesus tells how this is actually a twofold prophecy in Matthew 17 after he shows a vision of Himself speaking to Moses and Elijah to Peter, Paul and James. He explains to them after the vision that Elijah must come again, but that he has come already in John the Baptist. Obviously, John the Baptist wasn't ACTUALLY Elijah, but rather under the spirit, or anointing, of Elijah. So now, we understand that Elijah already arrived before the arrival of Jesus' ministry via the witness of the day, which was John the B, and can know that the same thing will happen again with the two witnesses before the 2nd coming. It won't *really* be THE Elijah and another witness, but two men under the same anointing as John the B was. Hence, Jesus' explanation on the Mount. Remember- Moses and Elijah were not actually there. It was a VISION of what was to come, in Jesus' own words.
Matt 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.\par 10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? 11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. 12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. 13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.
A couple things before I continue. Genesis 2:7 says a soul is created when the breath of life (spirit) is breathed into a man. Man *becomes* a soul when spirit is breathed into a body by God.
Gen 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Conversely, when a man's breath leaves, this breath of life/spirit returns to God.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Who we *are* is the soul, not the spirit. The spirit is not conscious. It is basically the "life force" that God gives to bring one to life. We HAVE "spirit," but we ARE "souls." All throughout the Bible you can see people referred at "souls," not "spirits." "And the number of souls that died in battle were...." "And all the souls that were saved were...." Spirits are always exactly that- supernatural beings, either angels or demons. They are never referred to as souls. Because they ARE created spirits. We have been GIVEN the spirit of life.
- Now to bring this back around, all who have died in Christ, their breath- their spirit, returns to God, according to Ecclesiastes 12:7. But there is no consciousness in the spirit of man that returns to God.
Psalms 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
Psalms 6:4-5 Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake. For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Psalms 115:17 The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.
Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. 13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! 14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. 15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Isaiah 26:14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.
Isaiah 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that DWELL IN THE DUST; for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. (emphasis mine)
Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand.
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which ALL THAT ARE IN THE GRAVES SHALL HEAR HIS VOICE, and shall COME FORTH; that they have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (emphasis mine)
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
John 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. 12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. 13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. 14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
Luke 8:52 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.
- The Bible makes repeated references to the soul being in a state of rest, or sleep, at death. Jesus referenced this several times, in His very own words. He also said, "No man has ascended to heaven, except the Son of Man who has come down from heaven." John 3:13
So what about the other Lazarus, Abraham's Bosom and the rich man? It's a parable. He was speaking to the lost, and the Pharisees, in particular. The disciples asked why He was speaking to them in all these parables we read about in Luke 12-17. Here's what the Bible says about it:
Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
Matthew 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. 12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. 13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: 35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
* As far as I know, the rich man and Lazarus parable is the biggest foundation for "consciousness after death" by most teachings. But if Jesus said it was a parable, and referred to death as "sleep," then said no man has ascended to heaven, well, let's just that's the entire reason I began to understand why Elijah and Enoch are not in heaven. No one is, except the Glorified Son of God, and the angels.
So, where did Elijah go? We don't know. All we know is that he was taken up by a whirlwind into >one of the three heavens<. He was not taken to the third heaven (II Cor 12:2) which is the abode of God. Was he taken to the second heaven? I doubt it, since that is the realm of the battles of the supernatural, as Michael explained to Daniel when he was delayed. Was he simply taken up into the atmosphere and relocated to another place right here on earth? That's what I believe, and I'll tell you why. Three or four years later after the whirlwind incident, Elijah wrote the wicked Jehoram a letter, telling him he'd better change his ways.
II Corinthians 12:12 And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the Lord God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah.
- What else does the Bible say about humans seeing God and being in His actual presence?
Exodus 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
I Timothy 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;\par 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
- The only way a human can see and be in the presence of God is to be in a glorified body. Jesus is the firstfruit of the resurrection, and the only One who has been glorified. This attests also to the fact that neither Elijah nor Enoch are in heaven. Glorified bodies are not rewarded until the resurrection!
Revelation 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
- Now to bring all back together, regarding the two witnesses.\par I believe I established that no man has ever risen to heaven except Jesus Christ. If you disagree, I'm more than happy to hear it! I enjoy these discussions with people…..
- If no man has ever been to heaven, then it goes without saying that this would include Enoch. So, what happened to Enoch? A curious case, for sure! The Bible says several things about him, very unique things. The following two passages are ALL the Bible says about Enoch:
Genesis 5:21 And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah: 22 And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters: 23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: 24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Neither of these passages says Enoch went to heaven. What they *do* say is that Enoch was a) translated b) found not and c) God took him.
What is "translated?"
G3346 metatithe met-at-ith'-ay-mee
From G3326 and G5087; to transfer, that is, (literally) transport, (by implication) exchange, (reflexively) change sides, or (figuratively) pervert: - carry over, change, remove, translate, turn.
It, quite literally, means "to be transferred, transported, carried to." Enoch was *taken* somewhere. It wouldn't be the first time. Elijah was relocated somewhere else, and so was Philip, who witnessed to and baptized the eunuch.
Acts 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. 40 But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.
- So Philip was "found," the Bible says. Enoch, on the other hand, was "not found." Moses' body was hidden, and I believe Enoch's was too, hence Paul wrote that he was "found not." So, does "should not see death" mean that Enoch died? In a unique way, I think it does. The Bible says all the years of Enoch were 365. His years of life DID come to and end, totaling at 365. So what happened to him? The Bible says he pleased God. He walked with God. I believe "translated that he should not see death" means he was taken somewhere and put to "sleep" without ever having to have aged, grown old and experience going through the dying process. For what purpose? The Bible simply doesn't say. All I CAN say, though, is that the Bible is pretty clear about no one having ascended to heaven, no one being able to see God, and souls being in a state of rest until the resurrection.
· For me, here are the five passages that set "annihilation" in concrete. (what I understand from these Scriptures I will write below them):
1) The wages of sin is DEATH. The gift of God is eternal LIFE. (Romans 6:23)
2) The soul that sinneth, it shall die. (Ezekiel 18:4,20)
3) Fear the one who can destroy BOTH body and soul in hell. (Matthew 10:28)
4) The last enemy to be destroyed is death. (1 Corinthians 15:26)
5) Death and hell are cast into the LoF. This is the 2nd death. (Revelation 20:14)
(emphases above are mine)
1) The only humans who are allowed to live forever are those who accept the gift of God, eternal life through accepting His Son, Jesus Christ. Therefore, those who reject Him do NOT get to live eternally.
2) The soul that dies in its sins will face a second death, the death of the soul.
3) Jesus said not to fear what happens to our physical bodies. It doesn't matter, for those who are in Christ, for they will receive immortal bodies when He returns. He said to fear the one who can destroy BOTH the body AND the soul in hell. The lost do not receive an immortal body. They should fear the Judge who will sentence them to death at the GWTJ.
4) The final act before the new heaven and earth are created is hell and death, itself, are destroyed.
· This one here is dealing with the "Enoch" debacle.
What else does the Bible say about humans seeing God and being in His actual presence?
Exodus 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
I Timothy 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
The only way a human can see and be in the presence of God is to be in a glorified body. Jesus is the firstfruit of the resurrection, and the only One who has been glorified. This attests also to the fact that neither Elijah nor Enoch are in heaven. Glorified bodies are not rewarded until the resurrection!
Revelation 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
- If no man has ever been to heaven, then it goes without saying that this would include Enoch. So, what happened to Enoch? A curious case, for sure! The Bible says several things about him, very unique things. The following two passages are ALL the Bible says about Enoch:
Genesis 5:21 And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah: 22 And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters: 23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: 24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Neither of these passages says Enoch went to heaven. What they *do* say is that Enoch was a) translated b) found not and c) God took him.
What is translated? G3346 µetat?´??µ? metatithe¯mi met-at-ith'-ay-mee From G3326 and G5087; to transfer, that is, (literally) transport, (by implication) exchange, (reflexively) change sides, or (figuratively) pervert: - carry over, change, remove, translate, turn.
It, quite literally, means "to be transferred, transported, carried to". Enoch was *taken* somewhere. It wouldn't be the first time. Elijah was relocated somewhere else, and so was Philip, who witnessed to and baptized the eunuch.
Acts 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. 40 But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.
· So Philip was "found", the Bible says. Enoch, on the other hand, was "not found". Moses' body was hidden, and I believe Enoch's was, too, hence Paul wrote that he was "found not". So, does "should not see death" mean that Enoch died? In a unique way, I think it does. The Bible says all the years of Enoch were 365. His years of life DID come to and end, totaling at 365. So what happened to him? The Bible says he pleased God. He walked with God. I believe "translated that he should not see death" means he was taken somewhere and put to "sleep" without ever having to have aged, grown old and experience going through the dying process. For what purpose? The Bible simply doesn't say. All I CAN say, though, is that the Bible is pretty clear about no one having ascended to heaven, no one being able to see God, and souls being in a state of rest until the resurrection.
Do we ever leave the earth, even when we die?
Proverbs 10:30 The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth.
Psalm 37:9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the Lord, they shall inherit the earth.
Psalm 37:29 The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.
Psalm 125:1 They that trust in the Lord shall be as mount Zion, which cannot be removed, but abideth for ever.
Psalm 132:14 This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it.
Matthew 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. ---------------------- **The wicked shall be destroyed (annihilationism)**
Who was Jesus's audience when He told the story of Lazarus and the rich man?
“The Pharisees and scribes complained, saying, “This Man receives sinners and eats with them.” – Luke 15:2
How did Jeasus speak to them?
“All these things Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable He did not speak to them.” – Matthew 13:34
Psalm 37:9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the Lord, they shall inherit the earth. 10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. 20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
Psalm 145:20 The Lord preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.
Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
I Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
I John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
·
Okay. Last one. I think. lol
To throw another understanding of this into the mix, I, too, believe the Bible clearly shows that man does not go to Heaven upon his physical death. Some notes to explain my stance, then I'll share the passages that support what I believe.
---PART 1 of 2--- We are not spirits, we are souls!
1) We are not spirits; we HAVE a spirit. 2) We are not bodies; we HAVE a body. 3) We don't have souls; we ARE souls.
Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
The soul is what we become when God gives the body spirit, or the breath of life. To understand where our consciousness "goes" after death, we must first specify which of our three-part being is *who* we are- our conscious beings.
Ecclesiastes 12:5b-7 5b Because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets: 6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Here we see that man goes into his "long home" (that preaches right there!) and people mourn. So, a man is dead. The next verse says "ever the silver cord be loosed". Now this is purely my personal understanding on this, and not doctrinal, as there are no other Scriptures to add more support to this, but I believe this "silver cord" is what "ties" the soul to the body. This cord is not "loosed", or, severed, until the resurrection.
***For what it's worth, I have past occult involvement, regrettably, from some 15+ years ago. I learned about this "silver cord" long before I ever read Ecc. 12:7. This is one of the more prevalent reasons as to why I believe Ecc. 12:7 refers to the keeping together of the soul and body.***
Next, we see that the dust returns to the earth, and the spirit returns to God, who gave it. The spirit is what brings LIFE to the body, creating the being. So, are we certain that the Bible states that spirit equates to the breath of life?
Job 33:4 The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.
"Breath" in Genesis 2:7 is described as follows: nesh-aw-maw' - From H5395; a puff, that is, wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect or (concretely) an animal: - blast, (that) breath (-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit.
In John 20, we see that Jesus *breathed* the Holy Spirit/Ghost onto the disciples.
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
So, it is understood that the spirit of man is not his conscious thought, but rather the life that is given to the body that animates a man, creating a soul.
There are many passages throughout Scripture that refer to people as "souls". Hundreds, in fact- too many to list. So, I believe I have established, through Scripture, that man's awareness is his soul, and not the spirit. Ecc. 12:7 states when a man dies, the spirit (note that it says "the" spirit and not "his" spirit) goes back to God, who gave it. Moving on.
The biggest error regarding this topic that is taught today, that I have witnessed, is the teaching that the spirit and the soul are one and the same, and when the "spirit" goes back to God, it's assumed the one who has died has "gone to heaven". I've shown that the spirit and the soul are positively two separate parts of the makeup of a human being, using Scripture.
---PART 2 of 2---
How does one explain II Corinthians 5:8? So many people cannot get past the phrase "absent from the body is present with the Lord". Well, I've shown with Scripture that *who* we are is not the spirit, but the soul. It is the spirit that returns to God, not the soul.
Where does the body go? We return to the ground. Dust to dust, right? I think we can all agree that the dead body of a human does not go to heaven.
Ecclesiastes 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. (just so it's positive, but I digress)
So, spirit goes back to God, body goes back into the ground, and...naturally, there's just the soul left to address. Some believe Abraham's Bosom ("AB" for future reference) from the parable of the rich man and Lazarus to be literal. Some believe it represents the moral of a story and that it's metaphorical. I believe the latter.
First, if it were literal, then this would mean that the soul is absent from the body and present in AB. I have a problem with that for two reasons. First, it contradicts II Cor 5:8. The Lord is not in AB. He is at the right hand of the Father, received in Heaven until the day of restitution of all things, per Acts 3:21. Second, if it were literal, it would mean that all those who would hypothetically reside there would be conscious and aware. This contradicts Psalm 146:4. "His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish."
There are many more passages supporting this, and I will post a dozen or so at the bottom of this article. OTHER than the example given in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, I'd like to see at least two or three more passages that specifically state anything contrary to passages I have shared thus far, as well as the others I will post at the end. If I see at least two specific passages stating that man is conscious and aware after death, I will gladly reconsider, and begin a new study of the Scriptures on the matter. Until then, I must stand on the host of passages that say otherwise.
Anyway, I think I've covered it all. Then again, maybe not. I'm not good with long essays. I stink at proof-reading, and I don't know how to enable that red-line-under-the-word-if-it's-spelled-wrong thingamajig.
Constructive criticism, thoughts and opinions are welcome, but biblical points are cherished. Scriptures below. There are more, but I think these 10 or so speak loud enough. --------------Psalms 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
Psalms 6:4-5 Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake. For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Psalms 115:17 The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.
Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. 13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! 14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. 15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Isaiah 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that DWELL IN THE DUST; for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. (emphasis mine)
Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand.
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which ALL THAT ARE IN THE GRAVES SHALL HEAR HIS VOICE, and shall COME FORTH; that they have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (emphasis mine)
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
1) We are not spirits; we HAVE a spirit. 2) We are not bodies; we HAVE a body. 3) We don't have souls; we ARE souls.
Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
The soul is what we become when God gives the body spirit, or the breath of life. To understand where our consciousness "goes" after death, we must first specify which of our three-part being is *who* we are- our conscious beings.
Ecclesiastes 12:5b-7 5b Because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets: 6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Here we see that man goes into his "long home" (that preaches right there!) and people mourn. So, a man is dead. The next verse says "ever the silver cord be loosed". Now this is purely my personal understanding on this, and not doctrinal, as there are no other Scriptures to add more support to this, but I believe this "silver cord" is what "ties" the soul to the body. This cord is not "loosed", or, severed, until the resurrection.
***For what it's worth, I have past occult involvement, regrettably, from some 15+ years ago. I learned about this "silver cord" long before I ever read Ecc. 12:7. This is one of the more prevalent reasons as to why I believe Ecc. 12:7 refers to the keeping together of the soul and body.***
Next, we see that the dust returns to the earth, and the spirit returns to God, who gave it. The spirit is what brings LIFE to the body, creating the being. So, are we certain that the Bible states that spirit equates to the breath of life?
Job 33:4 The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.
"Breath" in Genesis 2:7 is described as follows: nesh-aw-maw' - From H5395; a puff, that is, wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect or (concretely) an animal: - blast, (that) breath (-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit.
In John 20, we see that Jesus *breathed* the Holy Spirit/Ghost onto the disciples.
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
So, it is understood that the spirit of man is not his conscious thought, but rather the life that is given to the body that animates a man, creating a soul.
There are many passages throughout Scripture that refer to people as "souls". Hundreds, in fact- too many to list. So, I believe I have established, through Scripture, that man's awareness is his soul, and not the spirit. Ecc. 12:7 states when a man dies, the spirit (note that it says "the" spirit and not "his" spirit) goes back to God, who gave it. Moving on.
The biggest error regarding this topic that is taught today, that I have witnessed, is the teaching that the spirit and the soul are one and the same, and when the "spirit" goes back to God, it's assumed the one who has died has "gone to heaven". I've shown that the spirit and the soul are positively two separate parts of the makeup of a human being, using Scripture.
---PART 2 of 2---
How does one explain II Corinthians 5:8? So many people cannot get past the phrase "absent from the body is present with the Lord". Well, I've shown with Scripture that *who* we are is not the spirit, but the soul. It is the spirit that returns to God, not the soul.
Where does the body go? We return to the ground. Dust to dust, right? I think we can all agree that the dead body of a human does not go to heaven.
Ecclesiastes 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. (just so it's positive, but I digress)
So, spirit goes back to God, body goes back into the ground, and...naturally, there's just the soul left to address. Some believe Abraham's Bosom ("AB" for future reference) from the parable of the rich man and Lazarus to be literal. Some believe it represents the moral of a story and that it's metaphorical. I believe the latter.
First, if it were literal, then this would mean that the soul is absent from the body and present in AB. I have a problem with that for two reasons. First, it contradicts II Cor 5:8. The Lord is not in AB. He is at the right hand of the Father, received in Heaven until the day of restitution of all things, per Acts 3:21. Second, if it were literal, it would mean that all those who would hypothetically reside there would be conscious and aware. This contradicts Psalm 146:4. "His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish."
There are many more passages supporting this, and I will post a dozen or so at the bottom of this article. OTHER than the example given in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, I'd like to see at least two or three more passages that specifically state anything contrary to passages I have shared thus far, as well as the others I will post at the end. If I see at least two specific passages stating that man is conscious and aware after death, I will gladly reconsider, and begin a new study of the Scriptures on the matter. Until then, I must stand on the host of passages that say otherwise.
Anyway, I think I've covered it all. Then again, maybe not. I'm not good with long essays. I stink at proof-reading, and I don't know how to enable that red-line-under-the-word-if-it's-spelled-wrong thingamajig.
Constructive criticism, thoughts and opinions are welcome, but biblical points are cherished. Scriptures below. There are more, but I think these 10 or so speak loud enough. --------------Psalms 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
Psalms 6:4-5 Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake. For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Psalms 115:17 The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.
Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. 13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! 14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. 15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Isaiah 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that DWELL IN THE DUST; for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. (emphasis mine)
Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand.
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which ALL THAT ARE IN THE GRAVES SHALL HEAR HIS VOICE, and shall COME FORTH; that they have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (emphasis mine)
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
__________________________________________
Where Do We Go When We
Die?
~author unknown~
Humans do not go to heaven at death. According to John 3:13: And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Death is like sleep in that the dead are not conscious while in the grave. The dead do not know anything, they do not do anything; they have no emotions or feelings. The dead have no work, knowledge or wisdom. They are in the grave, dead. All our plans perish at the time of death.
Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 5.For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6.Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. ----vs 10.Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Psalms 146:3-4 "3.Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. 4.His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish."
The dead have no relationship with God. They do not praise God or even know Him:
Psalms 6:4-5 "4.Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake. 5.For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?"
The "dead in Christ" or "those who sleep in Jesus," deceased Christians, are resurrected at Jesus’ return.
I Thessalonians 4:14-17 "14.For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him. 15.For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16.For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17.Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
According to Matthew, as Jesus comes with the "clouds of heaven", He will "send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" (Matthew 24:30-31). After meeting Jesus in the atmosphere above the earth, the Saints will descend to the earth with Jesus, coming to the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem. Zechariah 14:4-5 "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
While still in this physical body, Christians are absent from being in the real presence of the Lord. When Christians become absent from the body at the time of the resurrection, they will be present with Lord. When their physical bodies change into spiritual bodies (1 Corinthians15:38-54), they "shall always be with the Lord" (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) Paul warned us about teaching falsehoods about the resurrection in II Timothy 2:15-18. "15.Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16.But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 17.And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18.Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some." Those who have died have NOT been resurrected into their spiritual bodies yet.
Job knew that the dead were unconscious and would "not awake nor be roused from their sleep" until "the heavens are no more" (verses 10-12). In His Olivet prophecy Jesus speaks about a time when the "heavens are no more," although He uses different words to express this idea. Job asked the questions "if a man dies, shall he live again?" He answers his own question by saying: Job 14:13-15 "13.O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! 14.If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. 15.Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee."
David wrote, Psalm 17:15, "As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness."
Isaiah 26:19 tells us that the dead will live again. Their bodies will rise from the dust, the grave, with shouts or songs of joy. "19. Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead."
Daniel wrote in chapter 12:1-2, "1.And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2.And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."
Humans do not go to heaven at death. According to John 3:13: And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Death is like sleep in that the dead are not conscious while in the grave. The dead do not know anything, they do not do anything; they have no emotions or feelings. The dead have no work, knowledge or wisdom. They are in the grave, dead. All our plans perish at the time of death.
Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 5.For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6.Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. ----vs 10.Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Psalms 146:3-4 "3.Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. 4.His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish."
The dead have no relationship with God. They do not praise God or even know Him:
Psalms 6:4-5 "4.Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake. 5.For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?"
The "dead in Christ" or "those who sleep in Jesus," deceased Christians, are resurrected at Jesus’ return.
I Thessalonians 4:14-17 "14.For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him. 15.For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16.For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17.Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
According to Matthew, as Jesus comes with the "clouds of heaven", He will "send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" (Matthew 24:30-31). After meeting Jesus in the atmosphere above the earth, the Saints will descend to the earth with Jesus, coming to the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem. Zechariah 14:4-5 "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
While still in this physical body, Christians are absent from being in the real presence of the Lord. When Christians become absent from the body at the time of the resurrection, they will be present with Lord. When their physical bodies change into spiritual bodies (1 Corinthians15:38-54), they "shall always be with the Lord" (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) Paul warned us about teaching falsehoods about the resurrection in II Timothy 2:15-18. "15.Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16.But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 17.And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18.Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some." Those who have died have NOT been resurrected into their spiritual bodies yet.
Job knew that the dead were unconscious and would "not awake nor be roused from their sleep" until "the heavens are no more" (verses 10-12). In His Olivet prophecy Jesus speaks about a time when the "heavens are no more," although He uses different words to express this idea. Job asked the questions "if a man dies, shall he live again?" He answers his own question by saying: Job 14:13-15 "13.O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! 14.If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. 15.Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee."
David wrote, Psalm 17:15, "As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness."
Isaiah 26:19 tells us that the dead will live again. Their bodies will rise from the dust, the grave, with shouts or songs of joy. "19. Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead."
Daniel wrote in chapter 12:1-2, "1.And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2.And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."
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